Where does the Anglican church stand regarding Hell.

But do you have a pretty good idea what the author of Revelation 21:4 and Revelation 20:14 thinks? That's what I'd like to know.
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I don't believe in purgatory, which I understand to be a third option according to Roman Catholics. I only believe in heaven and hell. I just believe that the punishments in hell will be "age lasting", not eternal, meaning never ending. Jesus said if we ended up there we wouldn't get out until we had paid the last farthing, but he didn't say we would never get out at all.

As for Satan's destination, I have no idea. Hell was made for the devil and his angels, I am told. I'll leave that point to God's wisdom and not speculate on matters above my paygrade.

Given that the last time I spoke openly about Universalism I had to give up my badge, you'll have to forgive me if I am reluctant to go into any more detail. But if you search the forums for the term "Universalism", I've discussed my position on the matter on many occasions.

 

Does this mean that you (and John) think that the lake of fire is Hell and is this lake of fire a real physical place, and if so where could it be located?

 

To be more precise, I should clarify that "hell" appears to be described in the Bible as the initial location of the deceased transgressors (as "heaven" is for deceased believers). Hell and those who abided within it are moved into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14) after the final judgment. The lake of fire is a place of eternal suffering, Rev 20:10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus seems to suggest that hell is an unpleasant location, too. Some people have claimed to have experienced hell briefly in "near-death experiences" and they report having been tormented by demons in an unpleasant locale, but these are anecdotal and cannot be proven.

As for location, who knows but God? The universe is immense, yet there are indications that it is finite, so what lies beyond the universe? The location of the lake of fire will not be of any consequence.

 

Could you clarify just a bit further and quote the actual scripture from which you derive this notion that 'heaven is for deceased believers' and hell is for deceased 'transgressors'? I'm assuming Luke 16:19-31 might figure in your reasoning, but I'm intrigued which other specific references are responsible for your certainty. (I have been brought up to believe the same concept but would be interested to see the actual scripture texts the notion is founded upon).

Has it occurred to you that Rev.20:10 can also be understood to mean that Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet will be tormented indefinitiely. (not even necessarily eternally). It is quite possible, given the nature of Revelation as an extremely figurative book, that Satan is representative of 'The subconscious dark side of human nature in rebellion against God, constantly at war with the spirit', Rom.7:21-25 the Beast is symbolic of the interiority of corrupt rule and dictatorial, tyranical human government, and the False Prophet analogous to all misleading lies and disinformation and those who pervert the truth.

And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them; and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages. Rev.20:7-10. Youngs Literal Translation

and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works; and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this [is] the second death; and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire. Rev.12b-15. Youngs Literal Translation.

A literal reading of the scripture in Revelation does not specifically reveal a definite statement that the dead from the nations which were being 'lead astray' by the Devil are 'tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages', that fate is specifically awarded to the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet. The dead led astray, not found in the Lambs Book of Life being tormented is an assumption derived from their location in the lake of fire, (if it is a physical reality), not specifically stated in the text itself.

The question has been asked "Where is this lake". You seem to assume the answer to be ' In the underworld '. But that is where Satan was confined the first time around , and that did not work, he was loosed again after only a thousand years. Rev.20:7. Revelation gives us the answer though if we look for it. : those who worship the Beast "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" Rev.14:10. And where are they? Right before God's throne. The lake of fire bubbles and spews in the very prescence of God! The lake of fire is nothing less than the sea of glass 'mingled with fire' that stands before the throne of God Rev. 4:6, Rev.15:2. Satan and his unredeemed hosts, (possibly figuritive of the dark human subconcious), cannot be indefinitely suppressed or chained, as Paul discovered, Rom.7:21-25. Rev.20:7-10. The Satanic energy, which we struggle with on earth), burns in heaven continually, in a perpetual transformation of evil into light and heavenly passion (fire).

If Satan is not so much a person , a being, a metaphysical entity, as a function in the divine economy, (Luke 22:31, Matt.4:1-11, 1 Cor.5:1-5, 1 Cor.7:5, 2 Cor.12:7), then the issue is not the inhuman torture of Satan as a person, but the final transformation of our struggle with conscience and our release to serve only God with all internal opposition to God's person refined in the fire before his throne and purged away forever.

Nevertheless, for the unsophisticated and simple minded heaven as reward and hell as punishment as a notion does have some merit. It is no longer very effective as an incentive or disincentive with materialist intellectuals though.
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The matters of the supernatural which are physical are still not physical in the way that a billiard ball is physical. Our resurrected bodies (see Jesus after the resurrection) are not like normal physical bodies. Heaven is not a physical place like a movie theater.

The big mistake atheists and skeptics (I was one) make with the reality of the supernatural is that they collapse everything into the physical. That's the error of univocity. The biggest example of that is God himself; he gets angry but not in the way we get angry. We have no idea what he is like, or who he really is; and when we attribute real attributes to him, it is only by analogy. Me being angry, and God being angry, are not the same thing; not even different degrees of the same thing. They're literally incommensurate, and the same word is used for both only by analogy.

The same applies to free will and predestination; not a problem if we use the doctrine of analogy. And the same applies to heaven and hell, again not a problem if we use the doctrine of analogy.

 

Some thoughts on the subject of universalism came to my mind today.

Mat 19:27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?”
Mat 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 20:1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
Mat 20:2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
Mat 20:3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
Mat 20:4 and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’
Mat 20:5 So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same.
Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’
Mat 20:7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’
Mat 20:8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’
Mat 20:9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius.
Mat 20:10 Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius.
Mat 20:11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house,
Mat 20:12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’
Mat 20:13 But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
Mat 20:14 Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you.
Mat 20:15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’
Mat 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last.”

It was brought to our attention in this morning's homily that this simile was related by Jesus in answer to Peter's question, "we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?" Jesus proceeded to answer Peter by likening the kingdom of heaven to a master who paid all workers who came to work in the vineyard the same wage. We can see what Jesus is saying: that all who follow Him will receive the same eternal life, no matter if they were lifelong Christians or they turned to Christ on their death bed.

But notice that only those who came received the 'same wage.' Anyone who chose not to work in the vineyard failed to receive a denarius. Likewise, those who choose not to trust in Christ will miss their chance to receive eternal life.

One worker grumbled that the master was not being fair to those who labored longer and harder. People who protest that it wouldn't be fair of a 'loving, compassionate God' to deny unbelievers entry into heaven are acting somewhat like that grumbling worker. What I mean is this: even though they aren't looking for more for themselves (like that grumbler was), they are like the grumbler in that they question the master's right to do as He has said He will do. The master never offered a denarius to any who stayed away from his vineyard. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? When God has said that he who believes not will be damned, we do not have the right to criticize or question His decision or His word.

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In Exodus, Moses asked God to show him His glory. God obliged, plus He revealed some extremely important elements of His nature:
Exo 34:5 The LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Exo 34:6 The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness,
Exo 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty...

A key element of God's nature is His mercy balanced by justice; he will forgive so much on behalf of those who follow Him, but He will "by no means" forgive those who decline in this life to follow Him.

 

What is often lost these days is that the converse of that statement us also true: God's judgment is tempered by his mercy.

I am currently reading a book called Patristic Universalism by David Burnfield. I'm only in the first chapters but so far it's been very readable and enjoyable. He explains how the Early Fathers' view of Universal Restoration, the majority view for of the early Church I am told, meets both key elements very satisfactorily.

 

The thing I like most about Jesus' teaching style is that no one can say "THIS is what it means", except Jesus himself. He cleverly leaves us to 'work it out for ourselves'. I think Jesus might have been saying something just a little different than you suggest, not much, just a little.

"What will WE have", suggests the mind of an accountant or money changer, a punter with a sure bet on an insider tip. A bit of a mercenary book keeper sort. We get into the kingdom, yes, but what do we get out of it, considering we have have 'put so much in as the purchase price'. i.e given everything up.

Jesus will have none of it. He says: "The Kingdom of God is LIKE a master of a house, who went out . . . . . . :

There is no hourly rate promised in the Kingdom of God. No one earns their salvation. Salvation is provided for anyone who wants it. Anyone who responds to the call of the vineyard owner. Even the layabouts, who any self respecting, sensible vineyard owner wouldn't hire. Even they are welcome as long as they work only on the vineyard Owner's terms. i.e. "Whatever I choose to give you", i.e. Salvation, forgiveness and eternal life, in return for their willingness to participate and their grateful acceptance of his generosity, (whatever that may turn out to be). They have no contract. They were not told their wage beforehand, the morning hirelings were, they were contracted for a denarius, let's say about $120 a day.

But the morning hirelings could do arithmetic. They were bean counting accountants and money changers. When they see the evening layabouts getting a denarius each, their calculating, mercenary minds go into over drive. "The idiot Vineyard Owner is paying us all $120 an hour lads, were in the money big time". They now figure that, in order, they are going to screw out of this nutty Vintner $480, $840, or even $1,440 for their equivalent individual, contribution of effort, sweat and toil.

Except that we are not told that there WERE any who refused, (or did I miss that bit)?

I think they were rather more complaining that they had not received what they thought themselves entitled to. Their EXPECTATIONS were based upon their perceived greater entitlement, when compared to the Evening Hirelings. But they had originally agreed to do a full days work for a Denarius and they got exactly that.

The point of all this is that there is no room for envious book keepers in the Salvation business. God offers it freely to one and all, whether you have been a 'Good' Christian all your life, or were a reprobate with a deathbed conversion. In the latter case it was their own life they wasted and envy from a faithful vineyard worker is deemed inappropriate in The Kingdom of God.

He didn't offer a Denarius to the Evening Hirelings either though. Only promised them a fair recompense. Imagine their amazement when they realised they had got the same as everyone else because of the Vineyard Owners generosity. I get the impression that in the story, the way Jesus told it, no one walked away when offered work. Perhaps then he deliberately didn't cover that eventuality and it then becomes conjectural whether he had work shirkers in mind at all.

But here's the point of the parable and Jesus' answer to the question "What do WE get out of it"? :

God is allowed to do as he chooses with what belongs to HIM. Woe betide anyone who criticises God for his choices.

"Look Pal"! (The word for friend that the Greek uses in verse 13, [ hetaire ] is distinctly UNfriendly). "Look Buster"! "You agreed to $120 bucks a day. You've done your day, I gave you $120 bucks. Now you question my generosity, you ungrateful sod. Take your money and get out before I call the cops".

If we are ever tempted to imagine that God is a little too free with His gift of Salvation, a little too generous with His 'Once and for ALL', it is well to remember the end of this parable. It is the grumbling 'religiously hard workers' who are in danger of 'going to hell', not the Evening Loafers and Layabouts who no one wanted to hire.
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What, you don't like my pearls? Just kidding.

 

I know you well enough, I think, to know that.

The tone of the whole parable though suggests that the only 'guilty' ones in the vineyard were those that questioned the generosity of the Vineyard Owner and implied that His generosity was in some way unfair to them. They were posed the question:

"is it not lawful to me to do what I will in mine own? is thine eye evil because I am good?" (Youngs Literal Interpretation).

This is the salient point of the parable, the reason the story exists, the whole point it has been leading to.

That to criticise God's Salvation Generocity toward others, that we consider less deserving of it than ourselves, is the only 'evil' that God has decided should be 'held against us'. Most else has been dealt with on the cross. 2 Cor.5:19 Thinking that our efforts to be good should be suitably rewarded by salvation, but other's lack of effort in the Morality Olympics should proportionately deprive them of God's generous Salvation, is labelled by God as having an evil eye on God's generocity.

This parable should be linked in our thinking with This one too.
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