Wow, I could have just said that and saved myself pages of posts. lol It is really quite exhausting being me. Anna
Oh, Gordon, you make me laugh. "Sister Anna" has exhausted the issue of the saints, and is exhausted by the issue of the saints. I need therapy at this point. lol. Anna
Since this thread is universally acknowledged to be exhausted , I'll just say one last thing to close it off : We are called by God to have faith in God. God sees us all now through His Son, not through the merits of special saints. To get a sort of comfort by praying to the saints (more "familiar" persons) diminishes the need to have faith in God, I think. This is all that needs to be said: Let all mortal flesh keep silence, and stand with fear and trembling, and lift itself above all earthly thought. For the King of kings and Lord of lords, Christ our God, cometh forth to be our oblation, and to be given for Food to the faithful. Before Him come the choirs of angels with every principality and power; the Cherubim with many eyes, and winged Seraphim, who veil their faces as they shout exultingly the hymn: Alleluia! He is the holy one of Heaven; let us come to Him through Him, in Him. Good night!
Then if that be the case we better stop asking each others here for prayer because no merits of anyone will help and praying for someone else is a work. It does not at all diminish faith in God you might as well say asking others to pray diminishes our faith, neither are true and both are poppycock, imo. What harm does it do to ask those closet to God for prayers? None at all. Those who prayer to the Saints have just as much as Faith in God as those in the Reformed camp who do not.
Asking prayers from those who are alive to us is fine. We can do it right here, right now. Asking prayers from those who are literally dead to us, passed from this world, and gone down the curtain, assumes that they have as much ability to be present to all of us as God does. This may not be immediately bad in itself, but it can easily lead to bizarre things, like thinking our prayers to St. X helped us find lost items or something. It becomes superstitious nonsense. Here is where the bad theology comes out. Those closest to God are you, and me, and every one who sincerely believes in GOD, loves God and loves his neighbour, and does the works of our Father. We are all equally close to the Father via Christ, and that is our communion together: our mutual communication in the equality and liberty of the children of God. None are closer to God, save Christ Jesus. That's the whole point... if not for Holy Jesus, our natural infinite distance from God would be unbridged and unbridgeable. Prayer to the saints, when God's right here amongst us, is a sign of not believing the Gospel of justification, of grace, and of faith. You said yourself that you have nothing against Rome, so it's to be expected that you don't mind their theology of works. That theology is damaging to the glory of God, though. If the saints are closer, why is that? How? They must've merited it somehow. That's the only reason. It's really not right though... it sounds wrong. Gordon will no doubt come and say that this topic doesn't even matter, or something else like that. Not sure why he even bothers.
I respectfully disagree with your whole post, though I suspect you knew that. I went down that road once of being anti Catholic, anti East, and anything to do with that type as I was spiraling down into Calvinism but I thank God I was brought out of that. I learned through this there are more Christians than just a narrow definition of that would give. The Saints are closer just by proximity which we do not have seeing through a glass darkly now, they see clearly.
Thanks brother Consular for queuing me in - no it doesn't matter for that matter.... I bother because one day I am hoping some of what I say may finally get through....
You can disrespectfully agree too! I do it all the time! Your ability to maintain respect, despite the most spirited assault against your beliefs, is admirable and most Christian. "That road" is a non-existent one, though. I will never be a Calvinist or Reformed Anglican (much to Scottish Knight's dismay ). Arminianism & free will are the only answers to God's enduring love and the freedom He has given us: both by nature and in Christ Jesus. Just because I believe, with the Bible, that the saints are fallen asleep to us, doesn't mean I'm a Calvie. We should always be careful of taking Gordon's line and yours, that there are "more Christians than just a narrow definition would give". It's true that our Lord gives a broad, simple truth of love - but that didn't stop our holiest Fathers from utterly condemning false Christianities such as Gnosticism, Arianism, and the like. I am no holy Father, but I believe firmly in their example to be charitable by informing people that what they're saying seems to be wrong. Psalm 145:18 - the Lord is near to all them that call upon Him, to all that call upon Him in truth. Let God arise in your hearts and minds, and consider nothing earthly-minded! I must say that I pray ardently it never will get through. I don't want to insult you, but I really think your Christianity is new to the last 50 years, that it is overly-tolerant of heresy, and it's just... too floppy! Excuse the metaphor, but it suits.
Actually brother a Christianity is a lot older then 50 years it is actually about 2000 years old and was inspired by a savior named Jesus. The pity is just how intolerant some of those believers have become over the years since. Little brother tell me this after all your indecision and searching as to whether you should remain a Roman Catholic or change to some other denomination have you found something that you can say is "authentic" (your words) and in your mind is the truth? This is a serious question brother and I really believe you need to think about it and not look to dogma or theology to try and answer that question. Blessings, Gordon
Consular, Using this reasoning, you should stop asking anyone to pray for you---in this life or the next.
Indeed, and there is much in it to suggest that. Though Christians have made a pious assumption that it is a humble thing to beg others for prayers, it is not a thing commanded to us. We are to assume that others are praying for us, just as we are (or should be) ever praying for them. If you can find a Scripture passage that says "beg/ask/implore one another for prayers", I shall turn right around.
Jesus says to pray to the Father: Matthew 6:6 in V.8 Jesus says: Further in Matt 21 v.22 So God knows what we need BEFORE we even ask. And He says He will answer our prayers. If we believe that God won't hear our prayers unless someone else asks for us -- isn't that putting MORE faith in the saints than in God?
Obviously, there's no such verse as that. There are plenty of verses in which people ask (or tell) others to pray for them.
St. Paul asked for prayer & told others that he prayed for them throughout his letters. Did he put more faith in the saints than in God?
I've always thought that praying for others was something each of us is obliged to do out of charity: to learn to serve God & others before ourselves. Does this have an actual effect upon God's gifts and plans, though? Other than repentance, I don't yet see what benefit the prayers of men can have, given that God only hearkens truly to the requests of His glorious perfect Son.
Holy Scripture tells us, "The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." This is something to consider in the discussion of requesting prayers from the Saints in Heaven. James 5 (ESV): 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. _____________________________________________________ Throughout the N.T., there are numerous accounts of requests for prayer. Acts 8:23-25 (ESV): 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.” Colossians 4:2-4 (ESV): 2 Continue steadfastly in prayer, being watchful in it with thanksgiving. 3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison— 4 that I may make it clear, which is how I ought to speak. 1 Thessalonians 5:24-26 (ESV): 24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it. 25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 2 Thessalonians 3:1 (ESV): 3 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, Hebrews 13:18 (ESV): 18 Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. James 5 (ESV): 13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit. Edited to add: 2 Corinthians 1:11 11 You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many.
I cannot figure out why asking Saints to pray for us causes those who don't practice it to be so angry?? How is this practice harmful, how does it harm any of you who don't like it, and how does it harm my relationship with God? This horse has been beaten to death, but asking Saints to pray for us is no different (in my eyes and in the eyes of others) than asking one of my friends to pray for me. If I tell Adam and Anna to pray for me because i'm going through a terrible trial and I need help and relief or if I ask Mary to pray for me for these same reasons, what's the difference? Is it necessary that Adam, Anna, Mary, or any other Saint pray for me? No, of course not, but some of us find comfort that there are those in heaven and on earth who are praying for us. Also, I do NOT advocate that any or all Anglicans should engage in this practice, however, it works for me and for many others. Earlier in this thread, the point was made that Jesus is not some angry dictator waiting to destroy the world, but sweet Mary pleads with him not to. If asking Saints to pray for us is somehow completely wrong in the eyes of God, do some of you see Jesus in fits of rage over it? With all that's going on in TEC, the Communion, and Christianity in general, I can't see how asking for intercession in the privacy of my own home is hurting anyone or how it's causing Christianity to crumble. I'm sure that there are some practices that I would disagree with as well, but i'm not going to bash others and tell others what they must do to be more Christian and more Anglican.