maci75 historyb's quotes do show requesting prayers/praying with the Saints was an early Tradition in Christianity. In Either the Saints Are Alive or Jesus is Dead, Fr. Jonathan quotes the Scottish priest William Forbes (1585-1634), whose argument for asking the Saints for prayers includes the fact that the practice of asking the saints for their prayers is so ancient and so universally held throughout the Church that to dismiss it would be an incredible act of hubris.
Stalwart, It occurred to me after this post, that the only time I have asked for prayers from the Blessed Virgin Mary; they were for my son. So, that negates what I said in the post above.
I did read his article, very interesting. And he quoted a Scot Well, you should know I'm not convinced by tradition lol. It is indeed very old, (I think 250AD is the first recorded date for it's use according to one poster? ) That's not quite apostolic though. However this is still a bit later from the formstion of Christianity. Which reminds me! Found out a very interesting fact about an ancient middle east practice of when in need of patience lol they will say "give me patience, Job" It's just a saying now but it shows an ancient Jewish and middle eastern practice of asking for help from a departed saint. However the Jews also kept picking up bad habits from the nations too He makes an interesting point about Christ and the saints and the comparison between them both. Of course Christ is in Heaven and departed from us and yet is still present. However He's present because He is God and therefore onipresent and He's sent His Holy Spirit as His Vicar on earth through which He is still present with us. The departed saints are departed too in Heaven like Christ but they are not God therfore not omnipresent nor do they have a substitute on earth like Christ has.
Scottish Knight, Many great points. I want to consider each point, when I have more time. Next day or so. Hope you have a blessed Lord's Day.
I've been thinking very carefully about prayer. It' really shows how interconnected everything is, that by talking about praying to the saints has taken me looking into praying to God, justification, righteousness, a lot of things to grapple with! I think the view that more holier people have more effective prayers is dangerous as it leads to an emphasis being placed on the the one praying rather than the God who is being prayed to. The passage in James is found in the same chapter as praying for the sick.and James says there "and the prayer of faith will save the sick" (James 5:15) SO who is the righteous man? It's the man who prays in faith. As Paul points out "Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness". Since the saints in heaven and the saints on earth have been made righteous by faith then our prayers will be heard the same, wouldn;t they? Of course the saints in heaven don't struggle with sin like we do on earth. But Romans 8:26 says "likewise the Spirit helps us also in our weakness. For we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered". This is a beautiful passage how the Spirit purifies our prayers to make them aceptable before God from all our sin. James also warns though in chapter 4 how these christians were not being answered because they were praying for their own pleasures and sin. It wasn't in faith in God because they were praying for things revealed by God to be wrong. If our prayers are for good things in accordance with God's word, then shouldn't we expect God to answer them, and answer them just as much as the departed saints? And if our prayers proceed from our own selfishness, then praying to the saints would have no effect since the request itself would be against God's wishes and the saints couldn't pray for such a prayer. 1st Peter I think can be understood as speaking of the law, since we all do wickedness, none of our actions are entirely free from sin, only someone who is pure or righteous can be heard. However since we pray in Christ who is righteous, purified by the Spirit, and covered in His righteousness we can indeed come before God in prayer knowing He will hear us. The sinner who is not in Christ has no such promise. Or it can be seen in terms of fruit. A believer will always produce fruits of righteousness, so the one who prays in faith can know he is heard. Otherwise we get this atitude where we never know if our prayers ar heard, if we are good enough, if our actions and motives are righteous enough to be heard. And I can quite well see how this worry can lead us to pray to the saints and ask for their perfect intercession for us
Scottish Knight, This has been and is one of the most thought provoking discussions I've had here on Anglican Forums. I've been doing a lot of thinking about the issue as well. I think at this point, we are both repeating what has been said before. So, I'm going to pull out some of your points that haven't really been discussed to a great extent previously. I believe our experiences predispose us to embrace or reject certain conclusions regarding the Saints. It is interesting that it never occurred to you to talk to departed family members. I have had the opposite experience in talking to departed family members and also in praying for their salvation. I was doing this while I was still in the Southern Baptist Church; and before I knew that there were faiths in which people actually spoke to the departed and prayed for their salvation (I was a very sheltered Southern Baptist. ) I did this out of what I would call a "spiritual instinct"--not sure how to explain it any other way. So, praying for and speaking to departed family members did and does come "naturally" for me. However, talking to the departed Saints, in the realm of this discussion, does not come so " naturally" to me. I have asked for prayers from only one Saint, the Blessed Virgin Mary; and I doubt I would extend my requests to other Saints. Actually, you aren't being "flippant" at all. You've made an important point; and, again, we've had different experiences. My sister and I are very close, even though we live about a thousand miles from each other. We've had a number of experiences pertaining to this very issue. For example: one night, I was having trouble falling asleep. I was overcome with fear that someone was going to break into my house and assault me. Keep in mind, I live in a large city that has always had a high crime rate. Yet, at that point in time; I had never been afraid to be alone. So, to lie awake in fear was not a familiar experience for me. I prayed so hard that night and eventually felt safe enough to fall asleep. The next morning, my sister called. She told me she was so worried about me during the night, and she prayed that God would send His angels to protect me. I believe that prayer was answered. I did feel the effects of her prayers and was able to sleep in peace. I can't tell you how many times my sister has said that I must have been praying for her (in specific situations,) because she could feel my prayers---and of course, I had been praying. I have had numerous spiritual experiences involving different people and situations throughout my 57 years. So, it is not a big leap to think the departed Saints are aware of what is happening with us in this life and pray for us when we ask, and even when we don't. If we are able to sense things and know things beyond our five senses in this life; how much greater would this ability be when we are with Christ? I acknowledge this is a question to ponder, rather than one we can answer with certainty. Many years ago, I visited St. Joseph's Oratory in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. I was with my mother and sister. This was a stop on our one-day bus tour of Montreal. My mother was a very devout Christian, brought up in a Southern Baptist Church. As we walked through the candlelit hall leading to Frère André's tomb, my Mom stopped to light a candle. I was really surprised by this--not exactly expected behavior for a Southern Baptist. I could tell something was going on with my mom. After we left, she said she thought there really was something special about Brother André.' She experienced a strong presence of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind, my Mom was in no way "charismatic." She really couldn't quite put the experience into words. Frère André was beatified in 1982 and canonized in 2010. Our trip to Montreal was around 1983 or 1984. Just realized the time. Must get ready for Monday Bible Study! More later. Anna
An in depth discussion tends to do that. Certainly, this has happened. So, no argument there. However, we must also recognize that it can happen even on this side of Heaven, when we ask someone to pray for us; and a powerful answer is given. We have a choice of praising the person, or praising God from whom all blessed answers are given. We must be ever mindful that only God makes one "righteous," only God answers our prays. I quoted this passage and others back in Post 107: Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith, and we are made righteous only through Him. No argument there. However, since the Saints in Heaven don't struggle with sin like we do, I'm not sure we are the same. Yes, it is a beautiful passage. I agree with all you said here, except---I think the Saints with Christ are made righteous in a way we can't yet claim. I, too, can see how this could lead us to the Saints. Though, I'm not sure this is necessarily a bad thing. I say this because I think the righteousness of the Saints with Christ would trump mine even on my best day. I say this not because I don't believe Christ makes me righteous through His sacrifice; but because I live in varying degrees of sin and repentance and varying degrees of openness to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. So, I may be praying for unselfish things without realizing I need to first come to repentance for sins in my life. Even when coming to repentance, I will not be forgiven, if I have not forgiven others. Does that make sense? That doesn't mean I intend to abandon prayer and let the Saints do all the praying for me. I'm just thinking out loud.
Scottish Knight, I appreciate all your comments. I've been considering your posts. I think we've exhausted the subject. I can't really think of anything else. If you have more comments, I would be glad to read them. I must say, it has been a pleasure discussing this issue with you. You have demonstrated a model of respectful disagreement and thought provoking comments and questions. Praise God! It is possible to disagree and engage in an enriching discussion. You seem to have come to firm conclusions regarding the Saints. I'm still pondering the issue. . . . Peace and blessings, Anna
Mary is our Mother, she is the Help of Christians. We do not worship her in the same way as God Almighty. We venerate Her as the Mother of God who was willing to say Yes to the Almighty Father, She was given the power to intercede on our behalf by the Father, only by His power can She hear our prayers. And She intercedes to Jesus, not the Almighty Father, as Jesus is the only mediator betwixt God and Man. Our Lady of Walsingham, pray for us. Amen