Mat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. Islam is founded upon the 'prophetic revelations' spoken by Muhammad. Muhammad is a muslim's greatest example, just as Jesus is ours in Christendom. What sort of man was Muhammad, and do his followers emulate him? The following is from Al Ghazoli's book which I mentioned previously: Muhammad was a false prophet, and all of the fruits he bore are evil. Muhammad was oppressed by a demon who choked him until he agreed to have written (for Muhammad was illiterate and could not write) the words which the demon gave him. Muhammad called the demon "Gabriel" and soon found that the "angel" was very helpful it getting Muhammad what he wanted: money, power, followers, prestige, and tons of women for sex. Muhammad managed to marry a rich older woman, and the day after she died he took two new wives... one of which was a 6-year-old girl named Aisha. Little Aisha became his favorite wife of all. He used the messages from "Gabriel" to lead his band of men in raids against various caravans and villages, where they killed all the men and took the young women as slaves or "wives." These men showed no mercy whatsoever. Muhammad always had his pick of the most beautiful ones for himself to marry (immediately after battle, while their family's corpses were still warm). If one of Muhammad's followers had a wife who caught Muhammad's eye, he cited a revelation from Gabriel which gave him the right to command the man to divorce his wife immediately, upon which Muhammad promptly married the woman and consummated the marriage (often the same day as the divorce). By the way, muslims say that Muhammad was the Seal of all God's Messengers and the prophet of mercy. Some of his greatest sources of enjoyment were having sex with young women, decapitating men, watching executions, and torturing people. On one occasion, Muhammad sent 3,000 men to besiege the people of Banu Quraiza (which held about 900 men, plus women and children). The people were offered a treaty: they were told that if they would surrender their arms they would be safe, so they did. But Muhammad's men had lied; they took their captives back to Muhammad, who ordered that the men be beheaded (10 at a time) and thrown into a ditch while the women watched, and Muhammad himself participated in the beheadings. When the men were dead (and Muhammad was covered with their blood) he commanded that the women be lined up for his inspection, and he chose the most beautiful one for himself and offered to spare her from slavery if she would willingly be his wife. The woman, who had just seen her husband, three brothers, and other relatives slaughtered, replied that she would rather be a slave and she spit at him, so Muhammad kept her as a slave and enjoyed raping her with her hands and feet tied. This is just one of many such examples of Muhammad's depravity. Have muslims been successful in emulating their prophet, who presided over the deaths of some 30,000 people during his life? Yes. According to Ibn-Al-Asam Al-Garhami's book, Tales of Battles, it is estimated that 10,000,000 people died by the Islamic sword between that time and the middle of the 18th Century. In Spain alone the muslims killed over 1,500,000 men. In just the past 10 years, 18,000 terror attacks have been committed in the name of Islam. Islam springs from an evil, diseased root and no good can come of it. A diseased tree may appear to have some health or soundness in it even while its core is rotten. Anyone who thinks Islam is 'okay' or 'just another harmless belief system' is mistaken. I could cite the many verses from the Quran which command violence and death against infidels like us, but they are easy enough for anyone to find on their own.
No. I think we can all agree that Mohammad is not a 'Christian Name'. That is what Rexlion and yourself are suggesting proves that the UK has been taken over by Muslims. Because Mohammad has climbed up the boys name charts in London. (Previously it was implied that it was top name in the whole United Kindom), which we have since refuted and proven 'fake news'.
I don't care what kind of a man Muhammad was. He is not my Saviour, Jesus Christ is. I hope to recognise evil when I see it and pray that God will deliver us from it in the time of trial. Meanwhile I will do whatever I am able to live as advised by the writer to the Hebrews. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: The rest should rest in Gods hands, not war mongering President Trump's. .
Now, don't put words in my mouth (or on my keyboard??). I never said that. At most (regarding UK), I might be suggesting that you could possibly be endangered by Muslims someday. No idea when, but vigilance is good, and helping Muslims convert to Christianity is paramount. Please, let's keep politics and political leaders out of it. I don't insult your Queen, you know.
Before this goes any further, I'd like to make a point. This discussion is not meant to be an "us versus them" thing, US vs. UK. We aren't in a rugby match against you fellows. It feels as though you in the UK have taken the questions and comments in this thread as a personal challenge or affront, and your tone seems to have been (to my perception, and if I am misreading I apologize) rather more abrasive and defensive than I'd have expected. (Perhaps part of it started from a misunderstanding, in that PDL didn't realize how anglican74 could quote him in an 'original post' of a new topic; PDL, the quote is from your Dec. 12 post #62 in "Anglican Memes" and I'm sure anglican74 didn't want to hijack that thread with his questions). So you chaps (PDL and Tiffy) made some good points about the misunderstandings about your situation, and you straightened us (anglican74 and myself) out on some details. All well and good to learn from your personal knowledge and experience, being that you live there and see more there than we in the US could have been exposed to. Anglican74 had still more questions which he asked, and they were answered but in what seemed like a peeved and disdainful way, sometimes with sarcasm; yes, he tossed out some 'facts' that he'd taken for granted (and which the two of you refuted rather easily), but beating him up verbally for not knowing what you know is poor recompense for curiosity. He'd been asking for a civil conversation, but I think it started to get his back up, and that started to show in his responses. As for me, I was trying to take a moderating tone and keep things smooth, but I became weary of watching him take a drubbing, and to be accused of "a bigotted stance," and to have all Americans called "xenophobic" (posts #30 and #32). And it began to sound to me as if (correct me if I'm wrong) you two regard Islam itself as no big deal, no danger whatsoever, and just another harmless belief system with which Christianity can or should coexist peacefully. So I set out to set aside the notions that Americans are xenophobes and bigots and that Islam is harmless. So, aside from some irrelevant political commentary, I think that sums up where we are at this point. We all bring some preconceptions and baggage with us, but we each bring a different base of knowledge and experience to the 'round table' as well. I hope we can dispense with name-calling and some of the unnecessary emotionalism. While I am passionate about the Gospel, reaching the lost, guarding against false beliefs, and a few other important things, I do not feel any ill will toward either PDL or Tiffy. And we are all brothers in the Lord.
I don't think that suggesting President Trump should not be taking God's role in determing the course of history amounts to insulting him. I can't imagine on what grounds you could insult our Queen. She has not had a political leader of a foreign country assassinated, violating another allied nation's sovereignty, without any consultation with her nation's allies. She is not elected, and has not been impeached, so stands nothing to gain from taking such diversionary measures to enhance her security of tenure and increase her chances of re-election. .
I think we both regard Islam as not entirely being in accord with the teachings and mission of The Gospel and therefore in opposition to the will of God. In that respect it is certainly not "just another harmless belief system". Anything in all belief systems which is in opposition the The Kindom of God are harmful, including also even false and heretical versions of Christianity. What we are opposed to though is the notion that opposition driven by fear and aided by misinformation is not The Way that Christ has recommended for his disciples. It is therefore essential that we concentrate on disseminating the truth and avoiding the mere demonisation of those who 'believe' differently than we do. Eph.4:25, 1 Tim.2:7. 1 Cor.5:8. .
It seems to me that the underlying issue of this thread comes down to “freedom of religion”. Something I would like to point out is, at least from what I have read, freedom of religion is not a Christian value and never has been. Law is always biased, there can be no true unbiased law as law is to reflect what is right and wrong. As far as I can tell the virtue of being unbiased comes from enlightenment philosophy which is not Christian. The Christian understanding is those in authority should encourage what is good and punish or discourage evil. Since Christ is true and good, all in authority should encourage a belief in Christ. Regardless of the numbers that are being argued here, I think that all would agree Christian influence is decreasing in western nations and other false religions are gaining more influence. Shouldn’t this be cause for concern? Here are some quotes I have come across in my reading, “We give our Magistrates no further Liberty than what we find is their due by the Word of God, and what the Practice and Example of the best Governed Commonwealths have confirmed. For besides that the Care of both Tables is committed to a Christian Prince by God, that he may understand that all Affairs, as well Ecclesiastical as Civil, come under his Cognizance ; besides, that God doth often and strictly command the King to cut down the Groves, to beat the graven Images to Powder, and to break down the Altars, and to write him a Copy of the Law in a Book ; and besides that, Isaiah tells us, that Kings should be Nursing Fathers of the Church: I say, besides all these things, it is Evident from the Histories and Examples of the Best Times, that Pious Princes ever thought the Administration of Ecclesiastical Affairs a Part of their Duty.” -An Apology of the Church of England by John Jewell. “God hath appointed his laws, whereby his pleasure is to be honored. His pleasure is also, that all men’s laws, not being contrary to his laws, shall be obeyed and kept, as good and necessary for every commonweal, but not as things wherein principally his honor resteth: and all civil and man’s laws either be, or should be made, to bring men the better to keep God’s laws, that consequently, or followingly, God should be the better honored by them.” -The Book of Homilies, A Sermon of Good Works Annexed unto Faith
If you are insinuating that my posts 40 and 41 contain misinformation, feel free to post facts that contradict the facts I've written. I can assure all here that what I've written is not driven by fear but by practicality, realism, and love for our lost muslim neighbors who desperately need Christ. I demonize no muslim person for his/her beliefs. I do demonize Islam the religio-political system, the false prophet Muhammad, and the false god Allah. (And were I using my real name, my life would now be in serious peril.... think about it.)
I can't be bothered to research the facts you have extracted from someone elses book and seem to have unquestioningly accepted as verifiably historically true. They may be so but that is not the point. I am not a follower of Allah or Muhammad so the 'facts' you revealed do not surprise me. My view of the way this thread has developed is that it has gone the usual way of adversarial Christian religionists who are on a crusade to alert us all to the world conquest of an Islamist war they are convinced, (perhaps rightly), is being waged, and which they seem to feel the need to awaken the west sufficiently to engage in another series of Crusades to conquer the Saracens or at least to seriously curtail their right to freedom of religion in the USA. Here are some alternative statistical 'truths' which might help to put the relative 'threats' into context. Number of Americans killed in wars in the Middle East since 2001: = 5900 Number of Americans murdered in US cities (at schools, businesses, places of worship, in their own homes) since 2001: = 304,000 A staggering 52 times more Americans have been killed in their own streets and in their own homes, schools and places of worship than have been killed in wars in the Middle East since the “War on Terror” began. Yet many Americans have been hoodwinked into having their attention diverted to the "dangers of Islam", "dangers of Liberalism", "dangers of anti American plotting abroad". America seems to be killing more of it's own people than it has lost in foreign wars since 2001. Such statistically proven 'facts' seem to be of little concern to most USA citizens though, most seem oblivious. Perhaps recent events in Iraq are intended to redress this imbalance and even it up somewhat. A new foreign war might improve President Trump's chances of re-election and focus people's attention on more serious matters abroad than an embarassing if unsuccessful impeachment and a death fest of gun crime at home. .
In the book, Christ, Muhammad and I, the author offers extensive footnotes and and source attributions, most of which are historical works written by and for muslims, including the Islamic Hadiths. Sources have names like Nur Al-Yaqin, Ibn Kathir, Taha Hussein Ph.D., Dr. Anwar Gundi, and Imam Muhammad bin Abd Al-Wahab. All of the best historical sources on Muhammad are bound to be muslim in origin. I hope we can trust muslim writings of history, despite their 'un-Christian' names! It is a mischaracterization to claim that I or anglican74 wish to advocate for a Crusade or to forbid muslims the right to worship as they see fit. (You might have confused us with the muslims in Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, etc, etc, who forbid Christians the right to worship Almighty God.) We have religious freedom and no state religion in the USA, and we hold these rights to be granted to all humans by God Himself. But we also have pieces of the Twin Towers (twisted steel girders, mostly) placed in parks and public places throughout our nation, as a grim reminder against complacency. I decline to follow up on the attempt to divert the thread toward gun control or politics, which are beside the point.
There is no doubt in my mind that there is a threat to the world's freedom and security posed by aggressive Islamism but it is added to by various movements of aggressive communism and aggressive Fascism, not countered by them. Indeed aggrssive Islamism is a fanatical, reliously flavoured, combination of them both, which make it all the more dangerous. .
If the 'historical sources' are the work of a Muslim belonging to any of the most extreme sects of Islam, (such as Wahabis,) and from whence they gained their experience of Islamic 'spirituality' then I wouldn't trust that they are historically accurate or true. On the other hand, if they belonged to one of the more benign schools of Islamic thought, such that gave us algebra, mathematics, the zero in arithmetic, (via India), and the art of navigation, not to mention knowledge of the Greek classics, and the philosophy of Sufi mysticism, then that would be an entirely different matter and their writing may be more truthful and trustworthy. .
I would be cautious about claiming that "they" gave us this or that. There was no "they". There were specific individuals, like Al-Khwarizmi, a specific individual genius who founded algebra by writing a specific book called Al-Jabr. Nobody else gets the credit for his book. He wrote it at a very particular sense and time, in the era now referred to as the Islamic Golden Age, notable for being exactly 1000 years ago, and no longer active. The Muslims have not invented anything worthwhile for at least the last 500 years, because following the generations after Al-Khwarizmi and other geniuses like that, the Islamic world turned extremely irrational and anti-scientific, and we see it proven in today's Islamic belief and practice. These are not your "foreign" but friendly and mild Sikhs. Muslims over the last 20 years have shown themselves to be extremely dangerous. Therefore I would be extremely wary of thinking, upon seeing a Muslim walking down the street, that there walks the spiritual descendant of Al-Khwarizmi, or Avicenna, or Averroes. More likely, there walking down the street, is the spiritual descendant of Sayiid Qutb.
I wasn't suggesting your caution would be misplaced in some circumstances. I would suggest though that you should be wary of thinking that every Muslim dressed in non western garb is likely a terrorist, intends to rape your daughters or wants to eradicate Christianity, Democracy and western civilisation. (Although you and I may probably agree that some features of western civilisation, less prevalent under the iron heel of Islamic law, could, in truth be well done without, to the benefit of western society). In short I am extremely wary, as should be all Christians, of a bigotted, ignorant and judgmental outlook. John 8:16, John 7:24. It is probably less likely than you imagine that the person, 'there, just walking down the street' is descended from Sayiid Qutb in any way, spiritual or otherwise. Indeed, if you read the article on him that I have posted under his name you can see that his insane form of bigotry is not restricted to Islam alone, but can infect any one of us, if we are compliant to lying Satan and not vigilant for Christ and truth. .
Is this another claim that you are unable to substantiate or is there somewhere in the rules of this forum that threads belong to the person who started them? If it is the latter I would be obliged if you please cite the rule. To be totally frank that is a line of argument I would have anticipated from my sons when they were in their teens. Behave how you wish but threads on this forum are open for all members to participate in. You do not, as far a my knowledge of the rules goes, get to stamp your feet and demand how a discussion will progress. I am not going to be making any more contributions to this thread. For the avoidance of doubt that is not because you wish me to refrain from so doing. It is because I have much better ways in which to use my time than to engage in puerile arguments which avoid fact and which do not rely on evidence.