Mini-Golf in Rochester Cathedral

They might have to be careful. Flashing lights are known to induce epilepsy seizures.......

 

I suggest the Very Reverend Jane slide down naked?

 

I suggest that you are 'leading into tempatation', an ungodly suggestion that a 'Godly' person should not suggest. Jesus had a sense of humour, but I think he would draw the line at naked helterskeltering.
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Well, I have to say how very disappointed I am. I was about to start a thread on this very topic to find I had been beaten to the post

Perhaps that is something else we could introduce. Races could be introduced so we get someone first past the post. Let's use Winchester, it is nice and long.

I think this has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. It smacks me of desperation. Perhaps if these places abandoned their liberalism and you can believe (or not) whatever you choose policies and started teaching Orthodox belief they may find that would draw people in rather than gimmicks.

 

Jesus often went from the sublime to the exaggerated to get a point across to people who were really fed up with boring religion. Do this, don't do that, pay this, don't work on Saturday, don't eat this, don't walk there, etc, etc, etc. Boring!!!!

Q. Why do you think people crowded out in the desert to hear him speak?
A. Because what he DID and what he said to them was ANYTHING BUT ORTHODOX.

I think you need to rediscover, (or perhaps dare I say, discover), just how unorthodox the Gospel of Salvation and Message of Reconciliation really IS. Shawn has found it out. Perhaps you need to search a little more.

How about going along to one of these cathedrals and offering your services as a guide to some of the helterskelterers in discovering the riches they have in Jesus Christ. Or would that put a dampener on the fun for them, do you think. If so, then it might be your view of the gospel being a bit too dour which leaves you with that impression.
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As we know, Jesus didn't refute the religion of the Jews, but upheld and enhanced it. As Jesus says in Matthew 5:17, 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.' And also Luke 16:17, Jesus says 'it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.' Jesus didn't, unlike yourself, see this as 'boring religion'.

I think the fact that you think a cathedral should be a place of 'fun' shows our difference in opinion. Surely a place of such grandeur, mystery, and holiness (as is the case in every English cathedral I have been to) shouldn't become so debased as to let mini-golf and fairground rides take centre stage. It reminds me of the Cleansing of the Temple (but maybe you believe Jesus was putting a 'dampener on the fun' for them?).

 

Of course that is valid. Jesus came to set us free, and part of that is a freedom from religious oppression, free to focus on the needs to the poor and the fatherless, rather than ensuring that we have tithed the mint in the herb box.

Part of me thinks that the person you are referring to here is John the Baptist. Jesus seems to have spent a good deal of his time teaching in synagogues and temples, seemingly taking the role of an itinerant Rabbi. His approach to the temple was to advocate for it being a place of prayer, and he had significant criticism of those who sought to make it a den of thieves.

in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself,
not counting their trespasses against them,
and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us.
2 Corinthians 5:19​

I don't see how mini-golf in Rochester or helta-skelta slides in Lincoln furthers this mission of reconciliation. Now I am not against mini-golf or helta-skelta, and I really don't think I could be bothered to comment if these things were set up in the grounds of these cathedrals. However there is a sense of sacred space which is important for us, not simply as Anglicans, or as Christians, but as human beings. If you return to the biblical account of the exodus, the tabernacle was God's tent, and with this nomadic people God was happy in the tent, yet as Israel became more settled, the focus moves from the tent at Shechem to temple in Jerusalem. The encounter with the Samaritan Woman may well have happened at Shechem highlighting a new movement, where it is neither on the mountain, nor in Jerusalem, but in Spirit and in Truth.

Now for the first 300 years of the Church's life there seems to have been little in the way 'places set aside' though I think that there is some evidence of customary places of meeting, and following the Edict of Milan in 314 some major projects were undertaken, including Holy Sepulchre, St Peter's Basilica, Hagia Irene, Holy Apostles, and Hagia Sophia.

My view is that we do not advance the gospel by trashing the sacred. We need to find better ways of engaging with the wider community, not so much with tricks and gimmicks (and despite her assurance otherwise I beg to differ with the Dean of Lincoln as it seems very much a gimmick) but with authenticity. Much of the world as we experience it has become shallow and facile, and I believe in Christ we have a lot more to offer than a slippery slide into a cathedral.

 

But you do have to agree that it would bring people in, which seems to be the object of the exercise.....

Quite apart from anything else, I am wondering who pays for this stunt? Is it the people who put donations in the boxes in the Cathedral? Or is it the "Very Reverend Jane" in her zeal to show people the roof of the cathedral?

 

The difference between our views on the subject is really a matter of where the emphasis vis a vis the propagation of the Gospel of Peace, is directed. I appreciate the view that our cathedrals should be 'a house of prayer' not a cattle market or an entertainment vaudeville show.

I appreciate that; I love Evensong, Matins, Sung Eucharist and Compline, indeed have lead and cantored many an Evensong with sermon and attended 1000's.

I have also been music leader to 12's to 16's at a week long Scripture Union Beach Mission where our main objective was to associate 'Jesus and his message to all mankind', with 'Fun, Fellowship and Feasting', rather than 'Funerals, Formality and Fasting'. I know what works best with that age group and how to make contact to the degree that they ask relevant questions on spiritual and practical subjects, and appreciate answers in language they can understand. But you have to come down to their level and be prepared to be a fool for Christ's sake. Otherwise you will not get their respect and you will not make the necessary connections to discuss deeper matters than merely having fun.

We need to be able to be all things to all in order that some may be saved. 1 Cor.9:22. Po faced piety will just not cut it, no matter to what level of 'sanctimoniousness' our sanctitude may have unbeknowingly ascended.
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I quite agree, and I am certainly not trying to be precious. I am not suggesting that we do not have fun. We have seen an endless stream of things ridiculing the sacred. What I am concerned about is that we should not be suggesting that we hold nothing sacred. These Ancient Cathedrals we born in witness to the Risen Christ. If we don't value this sacred trust in our generation, but rather as buffoons and philistines trample underfoot the joy of worship, then we fail and will be counted as having nothing of value. We need to engage with the wider community, we need to go to the fair, we need to have fun, and bear witness to the reality of God in our lives, not by saying these things don't matter, but rather by living lives engaged in the real world with a level of authenticity that can been seen. We are called to let our light so shine before all, that they may see our good works.

 

nadvertantly

Agreed! But I can't see that the Helterskelter is actually worse than Oliver Cromwell stabling his horses in the cathedral chapter house, defacating on the floor, or his henchmen defacing the statues in the sanctuary. We have endured worse than crazy golf and survived the experience. A little perspective here I think is in order. It is not as if they are showing blue films in the crypt or installing fruit machines in the refectory. I know you might feel it is the thin end of a secular wedge and I would agree that it is a bit whacky, but it is hardly sacraligious or blasphemous in the way that the Puritans and other iconaclasts treated our cathedrals. Cathedrals should not be only sombre mauseleums full of dead mens bones, they should also be filled with the life of The Spirit and God's Grace. Yes there should be a place for silent contemplation, but also a place for joy, laughter and celebration of freedom from sin, won for us by Christ.
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Agreed. The problem is this time we are doing it!

 

Holding 'fun' events at a church can be appropriate, if it is in furtherance of the Great Commission. If the Gospel message is communicated in some way, great! Have a short Bible recitation or lesson, or sing some edifying Christian hymns, or pass out literature or free New Testaments. Fun events can be a vehicle for something spiritually worthwhile.

Or the fun event can be wasted by being nothing more than a fun event. Sort of a statement to the locals: "Hey, we're all about fun here at this cathedral, so we fit right into your world!" When I saw the early posts in this thread, I assumed that this was the case in the aforementioned instances. But I suppose we really don't know that for certain; it's just an assumption.

I do think they could do much better for a message. Such as, "Hey, we're all about love; love for God and love for our neighbors. God loves you, too! We want to demonstrate that love for you by helping you if you have a need."

 

Of course this is true, but " If we don't value this sacred trust in our generation, but rather as buffoons and philistines trample underfoot the joy of worship, then we fail and will be counted as having nothing of value.", suggests that attending church services is the only kind of 'worship' that God approves of. Even tackling the challenges of a simple golf game or plucking up the courage to climb a helterskelter and launch oneself into a slightly scarry new experience, (at age 6-12), is a form of 'worship' and an exercise of 'faith'. I'm thinking in terms of the Benedicite here:

O all ye Works of the Lord, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Angels of the Lord, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Heavens, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Waters that be above the Firmament, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O all ye Powers of the Lord, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Sun and Moon, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Stars of Heaven, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Showers and Dew, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Winds of God, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Fire and Heat, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Winter and Summer, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Dews and Frosts, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Frost and Cold, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Ice and Snow, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Nights and Days, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Light and Darkness, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Lightnings and Clouds, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O let the Earth bless the Lord :
yea, let it praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Mountains and Hills, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O all ye Green Things upon the Earth, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Wells, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Seas and Floods, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Whales, and all that move in the Waters, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O all ye Fowls of the Air, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O all ye Beasts and Cattle, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Children of Men, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O let Israel bless the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Priests of the Lord, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Servants of the Lord, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye Spirits and Souls of the Righteous, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O ye holy and humble Men of heart, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.
O Ananias, Azarias and Misael, bless ye the Lord :
praise him, and magnify him for ever.

The Song of the Three Holy Children 35-66

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son :
and to the Holy Ghost;
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be :
world without end. Amen.

I don't get the impression from that of kneeling on hassocks in silence, listening to plain chant, Bird or Palestrina or admiring Gothic architecture being the only forms of 'worship' the authors had in mind when they sang this while dancing in the flames. Rather it is comprehensively universal and incumbant on everything alive to "Praise the Lord" in all things. Psalm 150. Psalm 148.

We occasionally need to widen our understanding of what it means to "Praise Him and magnify Him for ever", in all our activities.

These attractions at these cathedrals are temporary and transitory, not permanent. Some of us are getting a bit too hot under the collar and a bit too 'precious' I think. Why don't we actually enquire into what evangelistic initiatives might be accompanying them and what the actual motives are which prompted their introduction, rather than just throwing our hands up in horror from a discrete distance and condescendingly condemning them because they offend our personal sense of religious decorum.

I invite everyone to indulge their natural God given curiosity, visit these exhibitions and inform themselves before finding fault and taking offence through mere presumption.

There are blessings to be had in not taking offence where no offence is warranted. Matt.11:6, Luke 7:23.

 

Well, this thread got quite serious. There are very good and thoughtful arguments on both sides. I myself am reminded of Ecclesiastes, that there is a time and place. I don't believe that the nave of the cathedral is the place.

 

My concern with this is simply that the Church is meant to be the temple of God, as was the Temple of Solomon, the place of our encounter with the Lord, where “all mortal noise stays silent”, the place of highest sacredness


This is why The early church especially consecrated their churches, and we have the liturgy of consecrating a church building in the Book of Common Prayer

Once the church building returns to profane uses (if it becomes a museum or whatever), then a whole other liturgy has to be done to de-consecrate it, permitting it for profane uses

Here we are using a LIVE church for profane uses

 

And I must admit you do have a point. A debateable point, (as this thead seems to indicate), but definitely a valid point. I'm assuming that there were some searching, even heated, discussions at chapter meetings when these events were proposed and planned.

The feelings this sort of thing arouses in some pious Anglicans are probably somewhat akin to those stimulated by hearing one's favourite requium music played over a TV advert selling tampons or condoms. Understandably, not an easy experience to contemplate even for the not so easily offended. I personally object to Zadok the Priest being used to advertise P&O cruises, but c'est las vie.

However, The prophets of old were not at all squeamish about getting the attention of the people and causing them to actually pay due consideration to their relationship with the Almighty, by use of the profane. One even married a prostitute and proceeded to name his children by her in a derogatory manner in order to make some necessary, pointed statements, concerning the people's lax allegience and profligate, adulterous behaviour, Godwise.

I don't think any of the initiatives so far mentioned have gone that far to gain public attention, and I rather hope that no particularly enthusiastic ecclesiastic official in an Anglican cathedral decides to copy Hosea's example for a publicity stunt. Hosea 1:1-11.
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Actually the temple was a disgusting abbatoir, spattered with congealing and solidified blood and the sweat of toiling, boiling roasting, Levites. (The Levites were not the ones roasting though. That was the multitudes of dead animsls and birds that were cluttering up the place). Far from being, as you seem to imagine, a 'silent', contemplative space, it was a hive of frenzied butchering activity. You have been sold a false vision of the temple my friend.

Why do you think Jesus came to take us away from all that? 1 Kings 8:62-64. Imagine slaughtering 20,000 oxen and 120,000 sheep in one day, in one temple. Really peaceful and contemplative that must have been.
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Some random thoughts (hopefully without stepping on any toes):

When thinking of the temple, some folks recall the part where the holiest of holies was entered only once per year by the high priest, with a cord tied to him in case the Lord found him unworthy and slew him, in which case the others would be able to haul the dead body out. Some will recall the majestic appearance of the edifices which were the Temple in Solomon's day as well as the one in Jesus' day. Others will recall the killing of thousands of animals, the constant stream and spatters of animal blood, etc. Still others, the part that says the curtain to the holiest of holies (which was several inches thick) ripped from top to bottom when Jesus died, and the barrier between man and God thus was symbolically shown to be done away with. Different ways of remembering the same temple.

Has it come to, 'O ye mini-golf and helter-skelter, bless ye the Lord' ????
I'm reminded of this classic bit, which someone has co-opted... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozbZWV_45mU

 

May be you can explain to me with my split-my-wrists mentality how crazy golf and helter skelters brings people into cathedrals, teaches them about the Christian faith and keeps them coming back when the fun items have been packed away.