That's a straw man. Pretty sure that Anglican positions are implied in the question on an Anglican forum, and pretty sure that you took a different stance at the start of the thread. Of course, I could be wrong. It has become a confusing thread.
Perhaps what we see developing in this thread is the difference between revelation and theology. I take Gordon's words to speak of the importance of revelation.
Perhaps what we see developing in this thread are the differences between revelation, truth communicated by God to man, and theology, the orderly and systematic study of revealed truth. I think to understand salvation, we need both revelation and theology. Scottish Monk...
Most theology is vanity, sadly. Aristotelian terms such as essence, substance, accident, being, mode, faculty, etc., are so thoroughly engrained in theology since the dark ages that we can't seem to extricate ourselves from the tangles. Adam or anyone, why is the theology of justification important? :think:
Wow dicussions like this is why I am here. Really enjoy the variety of opinions. For me it points out exactly why the Bible can be used to prove whatever point one wants to make. Let me throw a little fuel in. When Paul and Peter had their little tiff about if Gentiles needed to be subject to the same laws as Jewish believers; it was determined that gentiles were only subject to 2 laws, avoiding meat sacrificed to Idols and sexual disgressions. Hmmm! In an earlier post Gordon pointed toward reading the red letters. There is a group called red letter christians. Interesting thought.
Exactly, this is why I disagree with Gordon's approach to theological questions. Also, not sure why Consular started denying the importance of systematic theology. I'm confused also.
It doesn't matter 'whose' terms they are. That is the genetic fallacy. What matters is whether the words describe objective reality, and is there an ontological need for the terms and distinctions to be present. Theology is the science of the divine. The theology of justification explains nothing less than why, how, and whether, man can be right before God, and offered salvation. Is there a topic that is more important?
Well said. That's where I'm coming from. Again, I'm not trying to attack anybody or put down anyone's beliefs. Living a virtuous life, a healthy spirituality, growth in obedience and in relationship with God - all of these are absolutely central to the Christian life. I happen to think that well-rounded, deep theological study is also beneficial and highly important. I understand that not everyone agrees. All of us grow in different ways. Theology is one way through which we can grow to know God better. Justification tells us so much about his love and his power. It tells us about ourselves, our needs, and our worth in God's eyes. If we let it, it can be more than just "head knowledge." It points us to Christ.
The purpose of this thread is to answer Scottish Knight's question: That is what I have tried to answer. I was hoping other Anglicans might be able to add to what I wrote to further help answer Scottish Knight's question about faith and justification. Again, the purpose of this thread is to answer Scottish Knight's question about the Anglican view of justification.
Thanks all for the replies everyone, I know I've kind of disappeared from my own thread (sorry) but, I will be reading carefully all the replies and I'll have my own thoughts and questions to post tonight at some point
I'm just sick of it, is all. We will know all we need to know about God once the End begins. Forever speculating is trying to peer into the third heaven. God's people - from the ancient Jews up through the renewed Israel - have always had a problem of making complex what was simple. The Torah was not enough for the Jews; they needed to super-add the Talmud. I sometimes fear that we, the people of God, can be accused of doing the same thing: first with the Alexandrian School, then Scholasticism, Mysticism, Asceticism, and various other massive systems that just seem to keep growing, all with endless specifications, details, nuances, and spiderwebs of doctrine. Most of all, I personally tend to despair that the West's theologising is just an excuse for a lack of faith. Notice that theology has progressively encompassed more as ages have passed. The Fathers wrote works on the Creed and the Faith, broadly on the Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, and human virtues, as well as works on the Eucharist and Baptism. Augustine speculated on yet more things; Gregory on more; Aquinas on more; and on and on, putting more of the holy infinite God under a microscope. Maybe 'justification', as it is ontologically, was under examination in the early days as well... they just didn't peeve about it vs. salvation, so much. It looks like the more time passes since the Ascension, the more things we are making up to amuse ourselves with, or perhaps delay our fears with (Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox alike). Sorry... it's just me, maybe
I thought the question had been answered our Anna summed it up quite well. My point was simply that by focusing on theology you are sweating the small stuff. The reason the church is so divided today is simply because people seem to be focusing on the small stuff.
Sorry I don't quite get that Stalwart, are you saying that focusing on other peoples opinion of scripture and God is more important then focusing on scripture and God? Ask yourself this question... What is it the divides us as Christian? It is not that we don't accept Jesus of Nazareth as our Saviour... it is all the other stuff that has been bolted on. Honestly I don't care if our Roman brothers believe that Mother Mary was a perpetual virgin or that our Assembly of God brothers believe that speaking in tongues is a sign that you are filled with the Holy Spirit or all those other theological questions that divide us. Although I need to wait until I pass over to find out, but I am pretty confident that God does not care either. The simple matter is this God sent his son Jesus of Nazareth to this world 2000 years ago to die for me a sinner, and I have faith that my believing in him will lead me to eternal life with God.
I'll try. God is the first mover, providing his own blood to be shed for the remission of sins. Through Christ's life, death, and resurrection, all who are called by His name are made righteous and justified. The Holy Spirit calls us, brings us to faith, and empowers us to reject sin and live lives of faithfulness. Turning to God in faith, we seek to align our wills to His. The ordinary means by which one comes to faith are the preaching of the Word and/or Baptism. The other Sacraments help us to repent of sin and receive forgiveness, resist temptation when it arises, and grow in grace and holiness. They can be said to contribute to a lifetime of justifying & sanctifying grace. That life exhibits faithful works of righteousness. Something like that.
That other stuff has been 'bolted on' is Christianity too. Is Christ present in the sacrament, yes or no? Some say yes, some say no; Christ's words are clear, but he used metaphors in many places. Did Jesus get resurrected, or was that pious fluff by 1st century Jews? Is there even a God, in the first place? You won't be able to answer any of these questions by simply repeating over and over again, the platitude that 'Jesus of Nazareth is our Saviour'. The truths of Christianity are rich, and complex, and a fruit of thousands of years of reflection.
Honestly Starwart I won't bother to continue to go about it in this thread, but at the end of day how does what other people believe affect your relationship with God?
I believe his point is: what anyone believes affects their relationship with God, and we Christians are a community who care about the other members of the body as much as ourselves. The whole body is affected if even one part is lost, after all. "How does other people doing X affect you?" No, more like "how does other people doing X affect their journey to Heaven? Do I care whether they arrive?"
Because maybe I don't know myself what to believe? That maybe I need to go on a journey to discover the truths of God, and so is everybody else? Words like 'relationship with God' are emotive and emotional, masking the point that there are real facts to be discovered underneath. Christianity is not about fluffy feelings, but accurate knowledge of the highest cosmic reality.
See this what I have a problem with... in bold above It seems that we Christians don't care if we allow things like transubstantiation, perpetual virginity, sacramental theology, infant baptism, etc etc etc divide our Church. I appreciate that the reformation had to happen because the Church was out of control, but since then we find division easier then facing the truth and it all comes back to a focus on theology rather then God. Don't get me wrong it is not about me or about you it about our relationship with God.
On this point you and I will just have to agree to disagree... and of course our relations with God is an emotional thing it is about LOVE, Gods LOVE of us and our LOVE of God.