Calvinism and Christianity - incompatible?

You're notoriously short on words. You know that?

I wouldn't say the Reformed follow the whispers of demons. Most Reformed people I've come into contact with seem to be genuine Christians. They've never been "Frozen Chosen". It's just a bit much to bring the demons in, at least for now.

 

Actually I was telling other members there was a interesting set of writings on the subject at the Conciliar Anglican website and I used his words.. what you are going on about.

 

Dear Stalwart, this seems more of an emotional outburst than anything else.

Reformed theology does not consider men "robots" and it's disheartening that you continue to insist on this obvious strawman. Men are self-determined creatures that act according to their wills. The problem here is that the will of man is corrupted by original, and then by actual, sin. Therefore, whenever we make a self-determined and self-conscious choice - which we do all the time during a day - we choose evil because our will is conditioned by sin. If a man who's standing over an iron grid infallibly runs away from it because fire is lit underneath it, is he considered a robot? Wasn't his choice self-determined, according to his own will? Yes it was. The same with a man who chooses to eat a slice of pizza instead of a bucket full of vomit. The analogies could go on. What matters here is what we perceive as good: due to our fallen nature, we don't choose the real good because we're perverted. So, using those same two analogies, the fallen man would self-consciously continue to stand over the iron grid, being roasted alive in the process, and the other man would gladly swallow a bucket full of vomit. Fallen man is really "dead in trespasses and sins": he chooses to sin everyday, he is not forced by anyone to do it. His choice is rational and self-determined. He's responsible and accountable for it.

The gospel of Christ states that all men, who are in this wretched condition, cannot do anything about it. So God steps in and does something about it! From this whole lot of perdition, He actually saves, not merely enables, but actually saves those whom He chose and predestined to be His children. That's the good news! That's to evangelion tes charitos tou Theou! The news that God comes down from heaven to save His people, not merely to help them save themselves. Another powerful hint is to be found in the name of Jesus Himself: "because He will save His people from their sins." He will save them, He will accomplish that which He was set to do. All those who were given to Him by the Father, NO-ONE can snatch out of His hand.

The problems with this view are manifold. There can be no future that God has not ordained to happen and there can be no good that God foresees in a man that He Himself hasn't wrought to begin with. Election is unconditional as Scripture teaches quite clearly, it is not dependent on anything but God's gracious favour. There's not a contingent future in the mind of God where He distributes grace to everyone and then sees who has accepted it or not so He can come back to reality and ordain the real future where He will then distribute the graces only to those who in the hypothetical future accepted them.

Since God's grace is resistible, then it is indeed ultimately up to man whether or not he is saved. This is simple logic. However, in truth, man cannot accept God's grace unless God Himself moves him to do so.

I did not say that your position was Semi-Pelagian. I said that all synergistic theologies inevitably tend to Semi-Pelagianism given the role they ascribe to human will.

No rules of language are violated, Stalwart. I encourage you to read the exegesis I provided. Hopefully, it will be enlightening.

This is your unsubstantiated claim that you keep repeating. Reformed theology does not violate any rule of language when interpreting Scripture. It does view Scripture as a whole and uses the reformational axiom of letting Scripture interpret Scripture. When we say that the "world" in certain passages means Jews and Gentiles or the Elect, we don't violate language, we apply valid hermeneutical principles. More so, unlike other approaches, Reformed theology does not avoid a single iota of Scripture, even the difficult parts.

 

Allow me to interject here a moment. As we debate/argue/ravage one another in the name of Christ, I would recommend taking a breath and observing reality for a moment. Outside your ivory seminary tower is a hurting, dying world that needs our knowledge and efforts, just two nights ago a former partner of mine was shot while on a traffic stop, but he managed to return fire and kill the suspect. At this point in his Christian walk, I don't think he gives a da** about Armenian vs Calvinistic theology. I'm stepping away for a while to focus on what's important to God and society.

Peace..............Jeff

 

What is all the "editing" for "language"? Did I say a swear word? I noticed that in an e-mail one thing was said and later the other person's comments showed up as something different in the forum.

 

Charlie, things are edited here for the sake of appearance, form, and good manners as well as cursing.

That is very moving Jeff, and reality needs to live with our theology. The Christian world, however, cannot do without theologians. Even while feeding the poor, bringing joy to the lonely, and loving those without love, the Church Fathers wrote vast treatises on grace, faith, the sacraments, the Church, and doctrine. They did not live in an ivory tower any more than an Anglican Forums-poster who debates theology and then keeps a homeless person company at a bus stop for 3 hours.

Your guilty conscience is laudable here, but the debate is essential. If we cannot agree as to what the Good News actually is, how can we confidently go out to bring that healing to the hurting, and life to the dying world? Do not allow your heart (golden as it is ) to overtake your head, you good man.

 

I picked this up at School, some 40 years ago.
" God pre-ordained part of the human race ,without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation,
and another part in just punishment of their sins, to Eternal Damnation!"

I thought Calvin was sick then and nothing has changed things.
These people who advocate Calvinism within the Church are simply the result of Calvin's Eggs, not being rooted out!

 

I do wonder what the traditional Arminian interpretation of the Good Shepherd metaphor is. He says that none can come to Him unless His Father gives them to Him, and later proceeds to say that only His Sheep know His Name and hear His voice. John 10 has always been a troubling passage for my free-will.

 

Indeed calvinism is a cancer in the Church

 

Although this lacks context, like the depravity of fallen man, his inability and unwillingness to come to God, it is nevertheless true. Unless God pre-ordained the elect unto salvation, they would never be saved.

 

That's because you don't really have a "free will" but a depraved will that cannot of its own nature will good and come to God.

 

A man more intelligent and scholarly than any of this forum once wrote :

"When I came to you, brothers and sisters, I did not come proclaiming the mystery of God to you in lofty words or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I came to you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom,but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the power of God. 1 Corinthians 2

 

Odd, but the same humble man you speak of believed in the absolute sovereignty of God:

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2 Thessalonians 2:13 NKJ)
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Ephesians 1:4 NKJ)
knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. (1 Thessalonians 1:4 NKJ)
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Thessalonians 5:9 NKJ)
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, (2 Timothy 1:9 NKJ)

The funny part here is that you guys think Calvinists do not believe in evangelism. We do In fact, everyone who believes will be saved. The question is will you believe? Those who do will be saved. Those who do not will be lost. God turns away no one who truly believes. The catch is you will refuse to believe unless God opens your heart. If you refuse, you are without excuse--even if you are a slave to sin and you are unable to do otherwise. God is obligated to grant no one grace or pardon but those he elects unconditionally freely and willingly come to Him for salvation. They are irresistibly drawn by His mercy and kindness:

Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4 NKJ)
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. (John 6:37 NKJ)
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 NKJ)
And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." (John 6:65 NKJ)

 

Apparently you haven’t read the quote correctly. The quote said that if he believed in the doctrine of Satan called Calvinism he would have trouble knowing the difference between God and Satan.

edited for language
-admin

 

Surely, The Body of Christ, the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the means for gaining Salvation, ,'Calvinism,' has no part in the Church and is a corruption introduced by sectarians.

 

[/quote=] What is puzzling is why you apparently do not believe the Bible?[/quote]


I do believe in the Bible, but I believe the Bible is interpreted and completed by the Bishops in Council.

 

The Church in England was not ,'Calvinist, until the Laudians..... messed things up.' The Church was Catholic then as it is now, the fault lay then as now, that we didn't take measures to get rid of the non-believers.

 

Well, actually, Archbishop Cranmer argued quite the opposite. He argued that the Protestant faith is "catholic."

edited for language.
-admin

 

That was a great quote, Old Christendom. I particularly like this portion:

To this effect are the pithy sayings of Augustine, “God orders what we cannot do, that we may know what we ought to ask of him. There is a great utility in precepts, if all that is given to free will is to do greater honour to divine grace. Faith acquires what the Law requires; nay, the Law requires, in order that faith may acquire what is thus required; nay, more, God demands of us faith itself, and finds not what he thus demands, until by giving he makes it possible to find it.” Again, he says, “Let God give what he orders, and order what he wills.”​

​

This why the Bible says that the "just shall live by faith". That was Luther's insight. Scripture has a way of renewing the mind. (Romans 12:1-2; Proverbs 23:7; John 17:17). The intellect is what counts, not the emotions. Scripture teaches doctrine, not mysticism or vague experientialism.

"Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith. (Habakkuk 2:4 NKJ)
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:17 NKJ)
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." (Galatians 3:11 NKJ)​

 

I will be offline for a few days. God's peace,

Charlie