Halfway kidding. I'm in a very large city; just adding a little local flavor to my affirmation. Don't need any condolences for living in the South, though. We have plenty of nice places to live here. I found Robert's last statement to be especially helpful. I think he makes an outstanding point. The personal opinions of someone on the Internet should never alter or disrupt our devotional practices. That includes invoking the Saints, something that I have defended even though I don't practice it myself.
These quotes are from anglicancommunion.org and give a more global view of Communion of the Saints Anglican Communion News Service: Enthronement Sermon of the Bishop of Gibraltar in Europe: Drinking from the Rock "If in this extraordinary diocese - the largest in the world, unique in the Anglican Communion - we are to witness as we should, we can only do it together. And God is surely calling us to a deep commitment to prayer, to holiness and to unity - as Jesus himself prayed on the night before he was nailed to his cross of suffering love, Father, that they all may be one, that the world may believe. So praying, so living, may the angels of God watch over us, and may the saints of God pray for us, that we may drink from the spiritual rock which follows us, that rock which is Christ. In the communion of saints living and departed who come out to meet us, may we be thankful and take courage." Anglican Communion News Service: The Anglican Church of Papua New Guinea: Primate's Easter message to the nation "Pray for us now and at the hour of our death", we beg the saints, because we know that the moment of danger is a holy moment, a moment over which the spirit hovers lovingly. __________________________________________________ This is a very interesting document pertaining to beliefs of Anglican and Orthodox Christians. It is well worth the read. The Communion of Saints and the Departed are covered in 66-78. Here are a few quotes (bold type and underlining are mine): Unity Faith and Order - Dialogues - Anglican Orthodox Introduction: Anglican-Orthodox Dialogue 1976-1984 The Agreed Statement 62. Finally the liturgical year includes the feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, and of the Saints, witnessing thus to the dogmatic truth that Christ the head of the Church remains always united with the members of his body and that there is no separation between the militant and triumphant Church. 'The Lord is wonderful in his Saints', and in the communion of the saints we see again the power of the resurrection in the life and tradition of the Church destroying death and transfiguring time. 67. Those who believe and are baptized form one body in Christ, and are members one of another, united by the Holy Spirit. Within the Body each member suffers and rejoices with the others, and in each member the Holy Spirit intercedes for the whole. These relationships are changed but not broken by death. 'He is not God of the dead, but of the living' (Matt. 22.32), for all live in and to him. This is the meaning of the communion of saints. 70. Christ is risen from the dead trampling down death by death. . . ' By virtue of Christ's cross and resurrection, death is no longer an impassable barrier. It is this sense of our continuing union in the risen Christ that forms for all Orthodox the basis of prayer for the dead and the invocation of the saints. Mainly as a result of the abuses of the medieval West, and the consequent Reformation in the sixteenth century, Anglicans rejected much of the practice and teaching of the Church of that time. The cult of the saints and prayer for the departed were criticized on the grounds of the all-sufficiency of Christ's redeeming work. Today there is a variety of practice among Anglicans on these matters. All remain careful in the language which they use in prayer for the departed, being anxious not to return to the errors of the Western Middle Ages. But all affirm our union with the departed in the risen Christ. 72.' . . . from one degree of glory to another' (2 Cor. 3.18): for the righteous, in the view of the Orthodox and also of many Anglicans, further progress and growth in the love of God will continue for ever. After death, this progress is to be thought of in terms of healing rather than satisfaction or retribution. Other Anglicans think of perfection in Christ as an immediate gift in the life to come. As Anglicans and Orthodox we are agreed in rejecting any doctrine of purgatory which suggests that the departed through their sufferings are making 'satisfaction' or 'expiation' for their sins. The traditional practice of the Church in praying for the faithful departed is to be understood as an expression of the unity between the Church militant and the Church triumphant, and of the love which one bears to the other. 73. Prayers for the departed are therefore to be seen, not in juridical terms, but as an expression of mutual love and solidarity in Christ: 'we pray for them because we still hold them in our love' (Catechism of the Episcopal Church, USA). 112. (e) We have reached basic agreement on the communion of saints and the departed. All of us believe that the communion of the Holy Spirit joins in unity the members of the Body, whether living or departed, and this unity is expressed in prayer and thanksgiving. There remains, however, a certain difference here between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism, since in most Anglican Churches, requests to the saints to pray for us are not made, and also prayers for the faithful departed, though common, are by no means universal; and some Anglicans believe that only thanksgiving for the departed is appropriate. Moreover, not all Anglicans agree with the Orthodox Patristic understanding of endless progress after death. Published by the Anglican Communion Office © 2012 Anglican Consultative Council _______________________________________________________________
Not invocation, but some remarkable mid 17th century prayers: From the First Form of Service for the Martyrdom of King Charles, 1661 But here, O Lord, we offer unto Thee all possible praise and thanks for all the glory of Thy grace that shined forth in Thine anointed, our late Sovereign, and that Thou wert pleased to own him (this day, especially) in the midst of his enemies and in the hour of his death, and to endue him with such eminent meekness, humility, charity, and other Christian virtues, according to the example of his own Son, suffering the fury of his and Thine enemies, for the preservation of Thy Church and people. And we beseech Thee to give us all grace to remember and provide for our latter end, by a careful, studious imitation of this Thy blessed Saint and Martyr, and all other Thy Saints and Martyrs that have gone before us, that we may be made worthy to receive benefit by their prayers, which they in communion with thy Church Catholick offer up to thee for that part of it here militant, and yet in flight with and danger from the flesh: that following the blessed steps of their holy lives and deaths, we may also show forth the light of a good example; for the glory of Thy Name, the conversion of our enemies, and the improvement of those generations we shall shortly leave behind us; and then, all those who have borne the heat and burthen of the day (Thy servant particularly, whose sufferings and labours we this day commemorate), receive the reward of our labours, the harvest of our hopes, even the salvation of our souls: and that for the merits and through the mediation of Thy Son, our Blessed Saviour Jesus Christ. Amen. From 'Private Forms of Prayer' Brian Duppa, 1660 O Lord we offer unto thee all praise and thanks for the glory of Thy grace that shined forth in Thine anointed servant Charles; and we beseech Thee to give us all grace. by a careful studious imitation of this Thy blessed Saint and Martyr, that we may be made worthy to receive benefit by his prayers, which he, in communion with the Church Catholic, offers up unto Thee for that part of it here Militant, through Thy Son, our Blessed Saviour Jesus Christ.
Symphorian, They are, indeed, very remarkable prayers, which give us a window into the thinking of 17th Century Anglicans concerning the departed Saints and their prayers for us.
Just a neutral addition: Church Association Tract 273, published sometime between 1860-1918: (http://www.churchsociety.org/publications/tracts/CAT422_InvocationSaints.pdf) "Invocation of Saints is a “fond (or futile) thing.” The Saints are but creatures, it is therefore impossible that they can hear and answer our prayers. Take the case of the Virgin Mary. There are said to be 250,000,000* Romanists in the world. Suppose only one in ten of them prays once a day to her; this means twenty-five million prayers every day, or well over a million an hour. No creature could possibly hear and answer all these petitions. Moreover, to hear and answer prayer argues the power (1) to read the heart of the worshipper, and so to judge the sincerity of his prayer; (2) to know whether it is best to grant or to refuse his petition, for we often have to thank God for not acceding to our requests. Plainly, therefore, it is “futile” to pray to the Saints." The writer of this tract employs logic rather than tradition or authority. As the venerable Justin Martyr said... "Reason directs those who are truly pious and philosophical to honour and love only what is true, declining to follow traditional opinions, if these be worthless. For not only does sound reason direct us to refuse the guidance of those who did or taught anything wrong, but it is incumbent on the lover of truth, by all means, and if death be threatened, even before his own life, to choose to do and say what is right."
I think we must recognize the diversity of beliefs and interpretations in Anglicanism. Even if assent to the 39 Articles were required of all Anglicans; we still have the issue of interpretation of the Articles, which is what I've tried to address in my previous posts. One can assent to the 39 Articles and still believe that asking the Blessed Virgin Mary, for example, to pray for us falls under the Communion of the Saints and is not tied to Article XXII which deals with Purgatory. I think we have to be careful that we do not set up a "magisterium," as in Catholicism, in which we are told exactly what we must believe regarding every detail of our lives as Christians. Ironically, Article VI seems to indicate the nonbinding nature of the 39 Articles, placing Holy Scripture above "an article of Faith." VI. Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation. Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. Through Holy Scripture, we know that God is the God of the living and not the dead.
From John Bramhall (1594-1663), Caroline Divine, on the 39 Articles: We do not suffer any man to reject the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England at his pleasure; yet neither do we look upon them as essentials of saving faith or legacies of Christ and of His Apostles; but in a mean, as pious opinions fitted for the preservation of unity. Neither do we oblige any man to believe them, but only not to contradict them.
Because Bramhall was sometimes cited by the adherents of Newman, it might be helpful to clarify his meaning with another quote: -John Bramhall, Replication to the Bishop of Chalcedon And to help explain what he envisions by 'subscribing', he states elsewhere: -John Bramhall, Replication to the Bishop of Chalcedon
Actually I think a lot of you need to go back to scripture instead of nitpicking over stuff that has been made up since.... A good place to start would 1 Cor 1 taking notice of V10 to 31. What I see in here is a great amount of boasting about knowledge of what really doesn't matter when you should be looking to the Lord Jesus Christ for answers through the Holy Spirit.
SO WHERE ARE WE Anna has clearly shown that many Anglicans have invoked saints now and in the past, for many centuries. This certainly has been the tradition of the Church since the 2nd Century and currently is so in the Roman and Orthodox Churches. Others have shown that the Articles have often been interpreted to forbid such practice. These folks think this practice in violation of Scripture and have many Anglican leaders to back them up. Perhaps we should go to Walsingham and humbly pray for guidance.
Perhaps not, Mark1. I shudder at the thought. It's certainly safer to pray direct to God, since we have biblical warrant for that. Things which have no biblical warrant may not be absolutely forbidden, but I would rather do that which is clear than that which is unclear. I don't think it has been conclusively shown that people invoked the saints in the Anglican Communion?
???? Certainly, Anna has given enough example to show that folks have and do invoke saints in the Anglican Communion. There are those who believe that this practice is outside the Articles and contrary to normative Anglican Tradition.
One of the main points I tried to make earlier in this thread is that there are Anglicans who assent to the 39 Articles and see asking the saints to pray for us as part of the Communion of the Saints and a separate issue from the "invocation" involved in the beliefs and practices related to purgatory. Article XXII is about purgatory. Most Anglicans don't believe in purgatory, myself included. So, even if assent to the 39 Articles becomes mandatory for all Anglicans, we still have the matter of how those articles are interpreted.
Earlier in the thread, I posted a dialogue between Anglicans and Orthodox Christians: The following quotes are taken from Unity Faith and Order - Dialogues - Anglican Roman Catholic on the Anglican Communion website: Mary Grace and Hope in Christ. The Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) an Agreed Statement: Intercession and Mediation in the Communion of Saints 68. The Scriptures teach that “there is one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as a ransom for all” (1 Timothy 2:5,6). As noted earlier, on the basis of this teaching “we reject any interpretation of the role of Mary which obscures this affirmation” (Authority II 30). It is also true, however, that all ministries of the Church, especially those of Word and sacrament, mediate the grace of God through human beings. These ministries do not compete with the unique mediation of Christ, but rather serve it and have their source within it. In particular, the prayer of the Church does not stand alongside or in place of the intercession of Christ, but is made through him, our Advocate and Mediator (cf. Romans 8:34 , Hebrews 7:25 , 12:24 , 1 John 2:1). It finds both its possibility and practice in and through the Holy Spirit, the other Advocate sent according to Christ’s promise (cf. John 14:16 -17). Hence asking our brothers and sisters, on earth and in heaven, to pray for us, does not contest the unique mediatory work of Christ, but is rather a means by which, in and through the Spirit, its power may be displayed. 69. In our praying as Christians we address our petitions to God our heavenly Father, in and through Jesus Christ, as the Holy Spirit moves and enables us. All such invocation takes place within the communion which is God’s being and gift. In the life of prayer we invoke the name of Christ in solidarity with the whole Church, assisted by the prayers of brothers and sisters of every time and place. As ARCIC has expressed it previously, “The believer’s pilgrimage of faith is lived out with the mutual support of all the people of God. In Christ all the faithful, both living and departed, are bound together in a communion of prayer” (Salvation and the Church 22). In the experience of this communion of prayer believers are aware of their continued fellowship with their sisters and brothers who have ‘ fallen asleep,’ the ‘ great cloud of witnesses’ who surround us as we run the race of faith. For some, this intuition means sensing their friends’ presence; for some it may mean pondering the issues of life with those who have gone before them in faith. Such intuitive experience affirms our solidarity in Christ with Christians of every time and place, not least with the woman through whom he became “like us in all things except sin” (Hebrews 4:15 ). 70. The Scriptures invite Christians to ask their brothers and sisters to pray for them, in and through Christ (cf. James 5:13 -15). Those who are now ‘ with Christ’, untrammelled by sin, share the unceasing prayer and praise which characterizes the life of heaven (e.g. Revelation 5:9-14, 7:9-12, 8:3-4). In the light of these testimonies, many Christians have found that requests for assistance in prayer can rightly and effectively be made to those members of the communion of saints distinguished by their holy living (cf. James 5:16-18). It is in this sense that we affirm that asking the saints to pray for us is not to be excluded as unscriptural, though it is not directly taught by the scriptures to be a required element of life in Christ. Further, we agree that the way such assistance is sought must not obscure believers’ direct access to God our heavenly Father, who delights to give good gifts to his children (Matthew 7:11). When, in the Spirit and through Christ, believers address their prayers to God, they are assisted by the prayers of other believers, especially of those who are truly alive in Christ and freed from sin. We note that liturgical forms of prayer are addressed to God: they do not address prayer ‘ to’ the saints, but rather ask them to ‘ pray for us’. However, in this and other instances, any concept of invocation which blurs the trinitarian economy of grace and hope is to be rejected, as not consonant with Scripture or the ancient common traditions. Anglican Members The Most Revd Frank Griswold, Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church ( USA ) (Co-Chair until 2003) The Most Revd Peter Carnley, Archbishop of Perth and Primate of the Anglican Church of Australia (Co-Chair from 2003) The Rt Revd John Baycroft, retired Bishop of Ottawa, Canada Dr E Rozanne Elder, Professor of History, Western Michigan University, USA The Revd Professor Jaci Maraschin, Professor of Theology, Ecumenical Institute, Sao Paulo , Brazil The Revd Dr John Muddiman, University Lecturer in New Testament in the University of Oxford , Mansfield College, Oxford, UK Rt Revd Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, Bishop of Rochester, UK The Revd Canon Dr Nicholas Sagovsky, Canon Theologian of Westminster Abbey, London , UK The Revd Canon Dr Charles Sherlock, Registrar and Director of Ministry Studies of the Melbourne College of Divinity, Australia Secretary The Revd Canon David Hamid, Director of Ecumenical Affairs and Studies, Anglican Communion Office, London , UK (until 2002) The Revd Canon Gregory K Cameron, Director of Ecumenical Affairs and Studies, Anglican Communion Office, London , UK (from 2002) Archbishop of Canterbury’s Observer The Revd Canon Dr Richard Marsh, Archbishop of Canterbury’s Secretary for Ecumenical Affairs, London , UK (until 1999) The Revd Dr Herman Browne, Archbishop of Canterbury’s Assistant Secretary for Ecumenical and Anglican Communion Affairs (from 2000-2001) The Revd Canon Jonathan Gough, Archbishop of Canterbury’s Secretary for Ecumenism, London , UK (from 2002) Published by the Anglican Communion Office © 2012 Anglican Consultative Council ______________________________________________ You can find more on the status of the document on http://www.anglicancommunion.org by searching the site for "Mary Grace and Hope in Christ. The Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) an Agreed Statement" or simply "ARCIC." This does not mean that all Anglicans agree with the statements and conclusions of the document. It was certainly not without criticism. However, this is further support for the fact that many Anglicans see asking for the prayers of the Saints as part of Communion of the Saints, and not Articles XXII, which deals with Purgatory.
Anna, I hope you realize, that Frank Griswold is exactly the same as Katherine Jefferts Schori. Allying with him, or citing him as someone who's done some good for the Church, is a complete anathema. There has to be a way to defend Anglo-Catholic principles without invoking liberals who are tearing TEC apart.
Who's labeling whom now, Gordon? I see you preaching peace and harmony in one breath, and then casting the first stone at views you don't like in the other.
Stalwart, My post had nothing to do with "allying" with anyone. I simply showed TEC's involvement with a project that was conducted under the leadership of the Archbishop of Canterbury. As for "defending Anglo-Catholic principles," I've stated a number of times that I have gone back and forth on the issue of asking for the prayers of the Saints. I still haven't reached a conclusion for my own personal practice, though I do not see anything wrong with asking the Blessed Virgin Mary, for example, to pray for us. As I've demonstrated in previous posts; Anglo Catholics are not the only Anglicans who ask for the prayers of the saints. Mary Grace and Hope in Christ. The Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) an Agreed Statement Introduction "1. In honouring Mary as Mother of the Lord, all generations of Anglicans and Roman Catholics have echoed the greeting of Elizabeth: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” (Luke 1:42). The Anglican - Roman Catholic International Commission now offers this Agreed Statement on the place of Mary in the life and doctrine of the Church in the hope that it expresses our common faith about the one who, of all believers, is closest to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. We do so at the request of our two Communions, in response to questions set before us. A special consultation of Anglican and Roman Catholic bishops, meeting under the leadership of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr George Carey, and Cardinal Edward I Cassidy, President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity at Mississauga , Canada in 2000, specifically asked ARCIC for “a study of Mary in the life and doctrine of the Church.” This request recalls the observation of the Malta Report (1968) that “real or apparent differences between us come to the surface in such matters as … the Mariological definitions” promulgated in 1854 and 1950. More recently, in Ut Unum Sint (1995), Pope John Paul II identified as one area in need of fuller study by all Christian traditions before a true consensus of faith can be achieved “the Virgin Mary, as Mother of God and Icon of the Church, the spiritual Mother who intercedes for Christ’s disciples and for all humanity” (para. 79). 4. Since its inception ARCIC has sought to get behind opposed or entrenched positions to discover and develop our common inheritance of faith (cf. AuthorityI 25). Following The Common Declaration in 1966 of Pope Paul VI and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Michael Ramsey, we have continued our “serious dialogue … founded on the Gospels and on the ancient common traditions.” We have asked to what extent doctrine or devotion concerning Mary belongs to a legitimate ‘ ‘ reception’ of the apostolic Tradition, in accordance with the Scriptures. This Tradition has at its core the proclamation of the trinitarian ‘ economy of salvation’, grounding the life and faith of the Church in the divine communion of Father, Son and Spirit. We have sought to understand Mary’s person and role in the history of salvation and the life of the Church in the light of a theology of divine grace and hope. Such a theology is deeply rooted in the enduring experience of Christian worship and devotion." ______________________ ARCIC - Anglican Roman Catholic International Commission History "The Anglican - Roman Catholic International Commission was established by Archbishop of Canterbury Michael Ramsey and Pope Paul VI in 1967. Its terms of reference were established by the Malta Report in the following year and it has worked in two phases - 1970-1981, and 1983-2005. The first phase of work was completed with the publication of the Final Report in 1981, dealing with three topics: The Eucharist, Ministry and Authority. The second phase covered a more diverse range of topics including: Salvation and the Church, 1986; The Church as Communion, 1991; Life in Christ: Morals, Communion and the Church, 1993; The Gift of Authority, 1999, and culminating in the publication of Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ in 2005." ____________________________ THE STATUS OF THE DOCUMENT, Seattle Feast of the Presentation February 2, 2004 _____________________________________ Common Declaration of Pope Benedict XVI and The Archbishop of Canterbury His Grace Rowan Williams
Stalwart, I want to say that I do not agree with everything in Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ; and as I said earlier, the document is not without criticism. In my desire to look at different sides of the issue, this is the link to the disagreements and negative responses to the document. Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ (ARCIC II) Essays by the Faith and Order Advisory Group of the Church of England I think good points are made on both sides of the issue regarding asking the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray for us. I don't know if any more recent responses are out. I have dial-up Internet, so searching for these things is agonizingly slow. What I don't want to see, in the Anglican Communion, is an attempt to "police" private prayers and devotions. The invocation of the Saints is not part of our liturgy. It isn't up to me to decide what you or anyone else should be doing in private prayer life. It isn't up to me to decide whether or not we should ask for prayers within the Communion of Saints, which includes all of the Body of Christ. I also don't want Anglicanism to turn into an imitation of the Catholic Magisterium, in which Catholics must submit religious mind and will to the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking Ex-Cathedra. Anglicanism is based on Scripture, Tradition, and Reason; and I am grateful for that. Different interpretations of the 39 Articles are easily found throughout our rich tradition (and not all Anglicans assent to the 39 Articles--a topic which has been "done to death.")