I can't think of a way to prove the following from scripture, exactly, but many people who've experienced death for some brief period and then have come back to life (resuscitated) relate that they have found themselves in a place either of pleasant surroundings or of darkness and tormenting demons. The ones who recall a pleasant place often relate that they had a human form but that their 'bodies' could move by thought, without actually 'walking,' and some of them say their feet and lower legs could pass through the flowers and grasses. This strikes me as a possible "spirit body" to hold the person's soul until the judgment (at which time he would receive an incorruptible physical body like Jesus' body). There were accounts, when Jesus died and rose from the dead, of folks seeing the spirit bodies of people who'd previously died, and these people testified to the miraculous resurrection. Matthew isn't specific about the type of body that was seen, but somewhere I think I've read that there were some other old writings which indicated they were rather 'insubstantial' or 'ghostly' appearances... I wish I could remember the source. Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. According to scripture, as interpreted by St Paul, Christ is now a life giving spirit, but first he was naturally a man. Natural men cannot walk through doors, appear and disappear at will or be everywhere at once. Christ is no longer a natural man, and neither shall we be. We will be spiritual, just as Christ is spiritual. .
Mascall was not faithful to the 39 Articles, or the BCP, or the Church Fathers. Whom he was faithful to was medieval scholasticism, and the rosy imagination of Gothic Christendom. As Trent raised Aquinas to the Roman altars, so Mascall tried to raise Aquinas and others to the Anglican altars. I don’t ever refer to him, just like I never refer to JC Ryle. Two unfaithful teachers from two different sides. Actually, if you wanted to maintain that, then I could tentatively get behind it also. The only thing we object to is that the Body is fleshy/carnal. That it had spiritual substance, or spiritual matter as you assert, is something I’ve stated from the beginning. So if you allow the Body of the Lord in the Sacrament to be made of spiritual substance, then that perfectly complies with the Anglican doctrine of spiritual real presence. You’ve reconciled your own dilemma, and now we can maintain spiritual real presence even without an objection from Aquinas, yes?
That is heresy. Jesus is a man still. He has a body, a glorified body. In the passage you quoted, St. Paul is not saying that Jesus doesn't have a body or isn't still a man. He is comparing Jesus to Adam. The phrase " living being" kind of makes the passage more confusing than it needs to be. A good translation would be: "the first man Adam became a living soul." So, St. Paul is comparing how Adam became a living soul and Jesus, the last Adam, became a life giving spirit. St. Paul is not saying that Jesus is only a spirit, for that is contrary to the Gospels (see verse in Luke I quoted earlier) and contrary to his own writings. Second, all of us have spirits. We are all living spirits, but Jesus is a life-giving spirit. But just because he is a spirit doesn't mean he doesn't have a physical body, just as we have spirits and have bodies. Third, the testament of Scripture, the Church Fathers, and the Councils is that Jesus has a body still. He is a man still. 1 Tim. 2:5- For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus Jesus is still a man. He is divine and in his glorified state can pass through walls and so forth. This miracle shouldn't surprise us. We have no way of knowing what Jesus is capable of doing in his glorified state.
I disagree wholeheartedly. I would say EL Mascall is far more faithful to the Church Fathers, Scripture, and the Tradition of the Church than most Anglican teachers. But we will have to agree to disagree on Mascall. I never claimed spiritual matter, like Bonaventure. I don't believe in spiritual matter. It again is contradictory.
So St Paul is wrong when he says that the second Adam is a life giving spirit, you say. I'll leave you to check that out with St Paul. St Paul also said: "From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer." No longer after what? After the resurrection and ascension of course. You seem to be rather insistent on regarding Christ, in the flesh, (we are not talking about the man Jesus of Nazareth here, we are talking about the 2nd Person of The Trinity, the Cosmic Christ, risen and glorified, The Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, who created all things), which you should be doing no longer, according to St Paul the Apostle. Christ is now again the person he was BEFORE his incarnation, the second Person of The Trinity, God Almighty, who is entirely SPIRIT. John 4:24. "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth". Is Jesus God? Yes! Is God a spirit? Yes! Is God a man? No! Not any more, no longer according to the flesh. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, much less be God Himself. .
No, your interpretation is wrong. So you don't regard me according to the flesh anymore? Am I spirit now? Our Lord is still Jesus of Nazareth. He is always and forever will be united to his human nature and will never stop being human. To say different is heresy. The Second Person of the Trinity is two natures for all eternity, divine and human. This is the teaching of Scripture and the teaching of the Church Fathers. You haven't answered to my quote of the Gospel of Luke. What does our Lord mean when he says that he is not a spirit for a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones? Jesus still clearly has flesh and bones, and to say anything else is to deny our Lord's very words. I will let you take that one up with our Lord and God. Luke 24:39- See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have. Edit: Here is also the Apostles Creed: "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen." This Creed Anglicans hold to. And it clearly teaches the teaching of the Apostles.
You are much too confident about that for me to take that seriously. If you are in Christ Jesus, certainly. You are dead flesh, a new creation, awaiting glorification. Regenerate! Before you pile the faggots and start the bonfire though, I would appreciate you citing the scripture verses which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the second person of the Trinity is a flesh and blood man, just as he was at his conception, incarnation and just as he was before the resurrection. Chapter and verse please. And that a flesh and blood male Christ reigns in heaven, where flesh and blood cannot inherit a place but have to be 'changed' in order to exist there. And I do not disagree with that. Those natures are not the nature of the natural man though, they are the unique, first born, natures of a new creation altogether. πνεῦμα pneuma; spirit: from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit: — ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Jesus made it clear he was no wraith, spook, apparition, ghoolie, ghostie, or long leggity beastie. He ate some fish and allowed people to touch him. He was corporeal and omnipresent as well however whenever he wanted to be. Jesus is consubstantial, meaning of the same substance, nature or essence as the Trinity. The Trinity is not flesh and blood, the Trinity is God and God is Spirit. .
But your point was that Christ is a spirit now and you used this verse to try and prove that. But right before it says we are not to consider another according the flesh. So, using the same logic, that must mean that I am a spirit. Unless...it doesn't mean that... Ok...is Jesus still a human or not? If yes, then how can he be a human without a human body? Or a spirit...since he has flesh and bones! The Divine nature of Christ is consubstantial i.e. of the same nature. Jesus has TWO natures that are separate and united only in the Person of the Son. The human nature is not consubstantial with the Father, for that would mean the human nature is the divine nature which is heresy. To deny that Jesus has a human body still, the same body that he laid down for us, is to deny the resurrection. What was raised from the dead? Jesus soul didn't die, for souls don't die. His body died. Therefore, his body was raised from the dead and reunited with his soul, but it was a glorified body, filled with the spirit, a new creation, but still a human body. The Second Person of the Trinity assumed a human nature and that human nature will never be divorced from the divine. The Son will always have two natures. To say he is a spirit only now, is to deny the eternal manhood of Christ, which destroys him being our mediator, as St Paul says at 1 Tim 2:5. Our mediator is "a man, Jesus Christ." St Paul was talking in the present. Prayer, study of Scripture, and study of the Creeds is needed on your part, for you deny major tenets of the Christian faith in denying the manhood of Christ and the bodily resurrection. The Anglican Communion has never believed what you teach. I will pray for you.
Essentially, you are, but you still currently have a body because you have not yet been physically 'changed', only 'spiritually' changed. Rom.1:21-23, 1 Cor.15:51-52, 2 Cor.3:18. Jesus had a human body only between his incarnation and his death, at which point, I'm sure you remember, he commended his spirit unto God The Father. After his death though, unlike any other human corpse, his body did not see corruption, through the power of God. It therefore was no longer a human corpse because ALL human corpses eventually suffer corruption. Our bodies all still are subject to corruption on death of the body. We need a new and spiritual body to continue existence in Christ. Christ's 'body' is now, after resurrection and ascension to the Father the same kind of body that was posessed by the wrestler whom Jacob wrestled with all night long. (indeed it may even have been Christ that Jacob wrestled with). He had flesh and bones too but was no mere human being. Christ is now more like 'The Angel of The Lord' than 'The Carpenter of Nazareth'. He is now incorruptable. He is now the second Person of The Trinity and there is only is ONE God and GOD is a Spirit. There is no flesh and blood in the Trinity. God is a spirit. You are misunderstanding the word 'Natures' to be about physicality. Natures, in the scriptural sense, are not physical, they are metaphysical. Nonsense! I do not deny the resurrection. The body of Christ is transformed. It did not see corruption as all other human bodies have and will. Christ's body is changed from its human 'form' without affecting its human 'nature'. There is absolutely nothing to stop Christ from appearing in whatever 'form' he sees fit to appear in. See Revelation 1:12-16. (+ All 1327 references in the KJV to The Angel of The Lord), Acts.9:3-7. Christ no longer has to 'appear' as human. Christ can even speak to St Paul without 'appearing' at all. Prayers will of course be appreciated, but false accusations of heresy won't; be assured. .
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. 2 Cor.3:17-18. Does that anwer your questions or not? .
No, we are soul/body composites. This is what it means to be fully human. Read Genesis 1-2. This is against orthodoxy, the historic teaching of the Church, and Scripture. Here is a quick Resurrection 101: John 2:19-21 states he was talking about the temple of his body that would be raised. In the Acts of the Apostles, the Greeks laugh and scoff at St. Paul when he preaches about the resurrection, because at that time, a bodily resurrection was ridiculous due to Greek philosophy believing that spirit was good and material was bad. This is where the Gnostic philosophy came from. But a spiritual raising to the higher realms was what they expected. Like I said before, if the body of Jesus wasn't raised from the dead, then what was? Can the spirit die and that is what was raised? This is what the heretical Jehovah's Witnesses believe in. Do you as well? Resurrection means “a rising from the dead”; something comes back to life. The disciples understood that all souls were immortal and at death immediately went to be with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). Thus, a “spiritual” resurrection would make no sense, as the spirit doesn’t die and therefore cannot be resurrected. Additionally, we need to be aware that the Scriptures, as well as Christ Himself, stated that His body would rise again on the third day. Scripture also made it clear that Christ’s body would see no decay (Psalm 16:10) a charge that would make no sense if His body was not resurrected. Christ emphatically told His disciples it was His body that was resurrected: “A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have” (Luke 24:39). Was he lying here? Was he truly just a spirit and like about him not being one? I would say Christ tells the truth, is the truth, and truly meant what he said. Paul likened our deceased earthly bodies to a “seed,” and God would ultimately provide another body (1 Corinthians 15:37-38) that would be like Christ’s glorious resurrected body (1 Corinthians 15:49; Philippians 3:21). He has a body! A body is material, unless you want to redefine body. So any scripture that may seem to say otherwise must be interpreted with all of Scripture. You can't just cherry-pick. First, God the Son has two natures, one divine and one human. That's what the incarnation did, added a human nature to the Son. The divine nature is spiritual. Second, the human nature is not pure spirit, it is material, because for the Son to be fully human he must have a physical and material body. To say that now he doesn't but is pure spirit is to say that Christ is no longer fully human, which is heresy. Third, I am not misunderstanding anything. If you take the time to read what I wrote you would understand that. Nature means the substance of something. The divine nature or substance of the Son is spirit. But the second nature of the Son, the human nature, is material, for he is fully human. There is no scriptural passage that states he gave up his humanity after his death, but in fact, all the passages and evidences point to him taking his body back up, for a resurrection means to raise from the dead, and it was his body that died. Fourth, natures "in the scriptural sense" are natures, and they can be either material or immaterial. You used the word meta-physical but I don't think you know what that means. It doesn't mean spiritual or immaterial, it means something related to the philosophy of the nature of being and existence, not spiritual. What about Elijah and Enoch? They didn't suffer corruption, did they? What about the general resurrection of the believers? Will their bodies suffer corruption in the eschaton? Unless you don't believe that we will be humans in the eschaton and will be bodiless? He was always the second Person of the Trinity. When he assumed a human body he didn't cease to be divine. John 1:14- "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." The Word never ceased to be the eternal Son of God, but assumed a human nature. To say otherwise is to deny Scripture, the Creeds, and the teaching of the Church, which is heresy. After the resurrection, he remained the second Person of the Trinity as he always was. TWO NATURES. You don't seem to understand that. Doesn't deny anything I say. The divine nature of the Son is spirit...the human nature has a body. Research the Hypostatic Union for further understanding and I would recommend reading On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius. That's not possible. For the form of something is the actualization of the nature. So, to be in the form of a human is to be actually a human. To change that form is to cease to be a human for you are changing how something is actualized. First, I don't have any questions. I know what the historic faith teaches. It is you who are confused about it. Second, that verse is talking about the Holy Spirit not about Jesus. Third, the Holy Spirit is the Lord, just as the Father is the Lord, and the Son is the Lord, for we have one Lord. St. Paul is saying Jesus is the Spirit, for that denies the Trinity. I think I have spoken enough on this. Major research and study is needed. I would recommend talking to a priest about these errors. Read the Church fathers, start with St. Justin Martyr and St. Athanasius. Learn to use all of Scripture and not cherry pick. Prayers are sent your way. Please don't fall into the error of the Jehovah's Witnesses in denying the bodily resurrection of our Lord.
A agree with ThomistAnglican, and had mentioned in my first post that sometimes people try to lean into the spiritual because it gets them out of the physical. No, we know that the resurrection will be physical. What kind it will be, that we do not know, and it's not like we'll be wearing t-shirts, going for groceries. The reconstituted world, which is to come, cannot be comprehended now, but what we do know is that it will be as now, a union of the physical with the spiritual. To deny the physicality of Christian faith is the heresy of gnosticism.
The Christ existed eternally, long before he had a human body, Christ made everything that was made and nobody else has made anything but Christ. John 1:1-3. When he died Christ's spirit returned to God, because Jesus of Nazareth, the God/man, commended his spirit into his Father's keeping, leaving his body on the cross. Luke 23:46. His body went to the tomb where it stayed until the third day. Acts 10:40, Acts 13:33-37. Christ went to Sheol, where he preached to the dead IN SPIRIT. 1 Pet.2:18-19. God did not beget Christ at the incarnation. Christ was begotten of his Father before all worlds, long before he was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the virgin Mary and was made man. Christ is now a life giving Spirit, with a 'changed', spiritual, transmutable, glorified, immortal body. As to how all this affects US - Rom.8:9-11. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 'Regenerate' man is not a soul/body composite. We are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if God truly dwells in us. If you do not have the Spirit of Christ, then you are not regenerate, even if you HAVE Christ, your body is dead because of sin. Your body needs to be made alive by Christ's SPIRIT. Otherwise you are not truly human, but a fallen creature disobedient to its creator with a dead body because of sin. Christ's SPIRIT, quickens or makes alive otherwise dead bodies. Body has BEEN redefined by God, when God raised up Christ from the tomb. Christ no longer HAS a mortal body. He has a GLORIFIED body, a spiritual body. Your mistake is in assuming that spiritual must mean insubstantial, ephemeral, vaporous or without substance. Christ's resurrection body was none of these, it was tangible, substantial but also transmutational. It could appear, disappear, be a disembodied voice, be a brilliant light, bear scars, not be recognised by his closest friends, be immediately recognised by his closest friends. And FINALLY: And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. So Christ now has a body which is also perfectly capable of transmutation into a Lamb as it had been slain or appearing with face shining like the sun at full strength. THAT is what a spiritual body can do and ONLY a spiritual body can do it. No human body can YET. The incarnation is about God 'being found in the fashion of man', not about God STAYING in the fashion of man. God is GOD and there is only one of them. Paradoxical isn't it. .
I think that is a particularly problematic statement. It would make Jesus a created being. Orthodox doctrine holds that the begetting was of the body of Jesus in Mary's womb.
These are the two orthodox statements, resting on the 4th Gospel and other scriptures. Christ is the only Son Christ is the eternally begotten Son Arius argued that there was a time when the Son was not. Athanasius slapped him in the face with in the beginning was the word and Arius was banished. The Son of God is not begotten in time but before time. That is why Arius is wrong when he asserted that there was a time when the Son was not. That is why Paul said, he emptied himself taking the form of a servant, and being found in human form ... I think @Tiffy is within the bounds of Orthodox opinion on this point. Christ's begotenness predates both the Incarnation and Creation itself, and indeed time. Jesus is indeed wholly uncreated, but unlike the Holy Spirit he is not unbegotten.
The true language of the Eucharist is neither English nor Latin, but Bread and Wine. The content message and communication of the Eucharist is Jesus. I think when we get this, deeply and profoundly, all the isms and all the ions, seem fairly irrelevant. Bread is Blessed and Broken. Wine is blessed and poured. Jesus Anamnesis. Christ, the Lord. I find ineffable a whole lot more helpful than of lot of the arguments that surrounds this topic. Is it important why God is here? Is it important how God is here? Or is the key issue that God is here!?
Better change the Nicene Creed then Rexlion. The virgin Mary wasn't there 'before all worlds' when Christ was begotten. Here we have an example of the way in which many believers conflate the word Christ with the name Jesus and try to make 'Christ' Jesus' surname rather than his Title. Christ is eternal. Christ means The Annointed one of God. Jesus of Nazareth BECAME and remains, the Annointed one of God, when Mary became pregnant. That is what incarnation means. The Anointed one of God, who was begotten eternally, not made, put on flesh, in Jesus of Nazareth when Mary conceived. Jesus of Nazareth began to exist when Mary conceived, when the Holy Ghost overshadowed her. The Christ never ever BEGAN to exist, he exists ETERNALLY. He is God The Son and so now is Jesus of Nazareth. .
The following is not my own words. It is a conversation between two people I've reformatted into a seamless piece, epitomizing this discussion. In Judaic thought, there is no seperation between faith and works. The etymological root for faith is actually taken from doing. The messiah actually picked that very day for the Last supper because of it's symbolism, exodus, the salvation of his people from bondage, the lamb which was to be eaten by the people before departing from Egypt. He instituted the New (καινή) covenant, which needs a sacrifice to be made. This sacrifice was going to be made at Golgotha on the cross. He as the Eternal Kohen Gadol (Eternal High Priest), not being bound by time, made it present at that supper, which is what "remembrance" (αναμνήσεις) actually means in Greek in this context, so that his disciples could partake of his body and blood physically for the remission of sins and life everlasting. Luke 22:19 HCSB And He took bread, gave thanks, broke it, gave it to them, and said, “This is My body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of Me.” So, how does a person obtain everlasting life? They believe on Jesus. What kind of belief? Not the superficial belief of many hearers, but rather the kind of belief where His Word is bread and drink to you. The kind of belief where the Son of God is such a central aspect of your life that He is your very sustenance. The kind of belief where you die to yourself and pick up your cross daily and follow HIm. This is why the teaching was "a hard saying", because the majority of the disciples only followed Jesus around to benefit from His miracles. The vast majority of His disciples fell away completely before passion week because they were never His sheep to begin with. But not the twelve. And why? Because Jesus has "the words of eternal life". It is His Word, His teaching that gives eternal life. John 6:47 RSV Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. John 6:53-54 NKJ 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Also: John 15:3-4. "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." .