Thinking of Joining Anglican Tradition...

Hi Everyone,
I am new to this forum so forgive me if this is an improper place to post my request, but I am hoping that I may find some help about my spiritual search. I was directed here by a member on Catholic Answers Forum, where I post quite frequently, to discuss this issue.

I am 25 years-old, currently living in Chicago, and became a true Christian about three years ago. Since that time, I have studied the various Christian denominations to determine which I believe has truly maintained the teachings of the apostles and early church. From that roughly two year search, I have determined that it is very likely the apostolic churches, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Church, have best retained the teachings of the apostles.

I grew up in the Catholic Church, so naturally I feel most comfortable there, but because I believe history, logic, and the Bible rejects supreme papal authority and infallibility, something I have been beat up on quite regularly by Catholic family members (only a few) and posters on the Catholic Answers Forum, I cannot be confirmed in the Catholic Church (something I never actually completed despite growing up in the Church). This is not the ONLY issue I disagree with the Catholic Church on by the way, but it is ultimately the most important issue because virtually all other problems I have with the Roman Church flows from these two problems, and even if I could get over all other issues, the Catholic Church REQUIRES all members of the Catholic Church to submit to papal authority and papal infallibility and I just cannot, in good conscience, do that.

This basically leaves only two church bodies left...The Anglican Church and the Orthodox Church (because I do believe that apostolic succession is important). Both obviously have their advantages and disadvantages, and truthfully, I admire a great deal about the Eastern Orthodox Church, especially their ability to maintain the teachings (most) of apostolic Christianity for a thousand years largely unchanged. However, the problem with Eastern Orthodoxy, at least for me, is that there can be a large cultural gap in many parishes, a language barrier in others, and there simply are not very many Orthodox Churches that exist in most parts of America. I will be moving from Chicago in two years, and it would be tough to end up moving to a place where no Orthodox (at least English-speaking) parishes are present (at this point, I don't know where I will end up, but my wife is in medical school and I know I will end up somewhere else).

The Anglican Church, which is primarily represented by the Episcopal Church in America (obviously), is very attractive for many reasons. I have often said that if the theology of the Episcopal Church of 1950 was still in place, I would, without question, join the Episcopal Church. This, however, is sadly not the case. For me, the MOST important deviation has been abortion...which the Episcopal Church regularly defends in some form, as well as the general movement away from the authority of scripture. I worry that, based on the direction of the Episcopal Church, there may not be any Christianity left in it in ten years (something I am sure many of you also fear). Obviously there are continuing Anglican churches out there, as well as the Anglican Church in North America, but these organizations are also relatively small (there are basically no regularly-operating ACNA or continuing parishes in Chicago or within a 25 minute drive). Further, I worry about joining one of these kinds of continuing Anglican churches because of how unstable they have been, how relatively new they are, and because in general, I am rather sad that so many orthodox Anglicans have abandoned the Episcopal Church, making it very difficult, if not impossible, to turn the church around in the near future.

So I feel stuck. I know I want to be in a church that has maintained apostolic succession. I know I can't be in the Catholic Church without lying. I could join an Orthodox Church, but there are a lot of cultural issues there and there are so few of them in the United States that I could end up having to leave in just two years. I want to be Anglican, but it feels like all the orthodox Anglicans are leaving, dying, or just plain giving up. I see signs of life in the United Methodist Church (because of their church structure and the orthodoxy of African bishops, who I don't agree with completely by the way), but I don't see the same signs in the Episcopal Church. It seems like being Episcopalian is sort of a lost cause if you are orthodox.

At any rate, I suppose I am looking for the collective wisdom of this forum to provide me with opinions, guidance, and really any help at all....The more I have thought about it and discussed it with priests, the more unsure I have become of what direction to go in. My family isn't really helpful since most of them are basically cafeteria Catholics (with a couple of very hardcore Catholics mixed in) and many of them didn't even know what the Anglican Church was when I brought it up.

I am not expecting a miracle from complete strangers online, but again, I will take whatever help I can get! God bless and thanks for taking the time to read this thread.

-Justin

 

I would encourage you not to regard Anglicanism as a substitute for Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy. The theology is very different. To truly know the Anglican tradition, pick up a copy of the 1662 BCP, read through it and the Articles of Religion, which are located at the back of the book. You can also read the Books of Homilies: http://www.footstoolpublications.com/Homilies/index.htm.

In regards to orthodoxy and TEC, sadly it is the case that heterodoxy is in the ascent right now. However, there are plenty of orthodox parishes across the nation. ACNA is also an option.

 

Well, I can understand where you are coming from. I won't go into my background, but it was completely opposite from yours, denominationally. I, too, could never be Roman Catholic.

For those desiring to be orthodox Anglicans, the situation is indeed difficult. I was ordained an Independent Old Catholic, and I am a clergy (bishop) Associate Member of the AMiA. But the nearest church is 90 miles away.

I don't know what to tell you. I know I could not be a part of TEC any longer. I was a member for some years back in the late 80's - early 90's. There are a couple of fairly conservative TEC churches within 30-45 miles of me, but the bishop in this diocese is liberal and has endorsed homosexual blessings and ordinations. I could worship in those churches, but when the bishop came to visit, I could not be there, and I could not give any money to the national church.

The United Methodist Church is not an option for me because I don't agree with the polity.

Maybe you'll end up in a diocese of the TEC with an orthodox bishop and where there is a local orthodox congregation. Even if I had both of those where I live, I still could not support the national church, however.

Or maybe you'll move to where there is an ACNA or AMiA congregation. Both of these are church planters, and both are/were growing, but you are right: their coverage of the country is limited right now.

I'll say a prayer for you, and please do the same for me.

Maybe someone else can give better advice and counsel. I'm sorry I wasn't able to be more helpful.

 

I am not regarding Anglicanism as a substitute for Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy. I recognize all three are very different. However, I didn't want to waste time going through every theological reason why I would choose any one of the three over the other, and I don't think any of them are perfect, so I simplified it for the sake of the discussion. Truthfully, I think the best denomination would have parts from all three.

 

Thank you so much for the advice and for sharing your feelings on the issue.

I don't agree with the UMC polity either, which is the primary reason I didn't mention it above.

I will surely pray for you and hope that things work out for everyone in our similar situation. I agree that ACNA or AMiA are, in many ways, better options...but I am not certain that I absolutely could not be in an Episcopal parish, although getting the opinion of others on that point is precisely why I posted.

There are several orthodox Anglican parishes in and around Chicago, but I do not think the bishop here is particularly conservative. I have actually spoken with him personally, and while I like him in many ways, I don't think he is as orthodox as I would like on multiple issues. Even if he was, I think the greater issue is the national church anyway. I mean, after all, you can get a bad bishop in any denomination!

The national church really is travesty in many ways and I am not sure I could join for that reason, but I would like to get the opinion of others on this point especially before making any decisions. Thanks again for posting and for your prayers!

Justin

 

Welcome. I think I might be the one who sent you here. Being Anabaptist myself, I don't have much advice for you. Personally, if I were to become Anglican it would have to be through The Episcopal Church. I'm not quite sure how I feel about their policies (long story), but even if I come out against them, I can not reconcile to myself being part of an Anglican Church that is not in comunion with the original Anglican Church, The Church of England, and it seems to me that it is better to stay and try and help the old church recover rather than jump ship whenever the church does something you don't agree with. This has happened several times in my church's history, and while some reasons for our splits were better than others, it has never solved any problems. I accept and respect that others may disagree with me on this.

 

Welcome Justin. Great post! A lot of us here are struggling with heterodoxy in the TEC together. I have been strengthened by the fact that ACNA is nearby, and so that is my one big lifeline to orthodoxy.To touch on BrethrenBoy's point, the reason why ACNA may be a lifeline to the orthodoxy is that they may be regularized within the Anglican Communion, according to recent movements from Canterbury. Without that I could never consider them.

On another point I still do visit a few local TEC churches as well. There can be good parts together with the bad. The parish's assistant rector is female, and so while I may be in a church with a layman (a female priest), at least the liturgy will always be magnificent and I won't be exposed to modernistic Roman Catholic masses with guitars and bongo drums. Also I won't be told about the Queen of Heaven or made to pray to the Quadrinity (Mary + God).

In your case since you said ACNA is far away but there are a few conservative TEC parishes nearby, I would strongly encourage you to attend those parishes. There is no stronger gesture you could make in favor of orthodoxy than joining those TEC parishes (no matter what the bishop is). Bishops are temporary. If we strengthen orthodox priests and rise up through the ranks, eventually the bishops will be taken from a pool of priests like those nearby rectors of yours, who courageously fight the good fight. So imagine how much support they need from us, and if you can give it, it would be the absolutely best thing to do.

On the topic of Eastern Orthodoxy, there are a number of grave theological hindrances that should alert you. It is more than just a cultural barrier. The biggest problem is that they reject the notion of Original Sin and teach -- basically -- pelagianism. They actually reject the ancient councils that condemned Pelagius as heretical, and espouse pretty much his theology today. By the standards of the Ancient Church, that would make the whole EO church heretical.... Another issue the incarnational theology which requires images of Christ, rather than at least making them optional. In this they (again) reject the Ancient Church which tore down any paintings of Christ they found.

 

Stalwart, I'm glad to see you posting here again. We've had some strong differences at times, but I especially value any orthodox brother these days.

 

BrethrenBoy,
Thanks for posting and for leading me here as well...I do remember you making the suggestion. I am curious, why exactly do you say that it's important to officially be in communion with the Anglican Communion?

 

Dear Stalwart,
Thank you very much for the warm welcome and the detailed advice. First, I would also like to ask you why you also feel that being in communion with the Anglican Communion is important. I find it very interesting that many people seem to take this view. Not coming from an Anglican background, I am curious why this is the case and would love to hear your thoughts on this, as well as from others.

I also appreciate your advice about attending the conservative TEC parishes nearby. I am considering it very carefully and your opinion on the matter definitely does encourage me.

However, it sounds to me (and please don't let me put words in your mouth) that you believe an ACNA parish is the preferred choice, even despite the fact that they are not yet in the Anglican Communion. Is this accurate or am I missing something? The reason I ask is because while it is true there are no ACNA parishes in the immediate area, a 30 minute drive or so would allow me to make it to a large ACNA parish. It's a lot further than the TEC parishes that are close to here, but it is possible it is worth the drive. What do you think?

Also, don't you worry that ACNA is just a temporary continuing denomination that will inevitably break apart like so many of the continuing denominations before it? Even if you think it has staying power, if it never enters into communion with the Anglican Communion, do you think it is worth becoming a member?

Are conservative Anglicans better off staying in the TEC and trying to make the proper reforms? Sometimes when I read about the history of the Episcopal Church, I get frustrated that orthodox members gave up far too quickly. It seems to me that they would have been better off staying and fighting for what they believed in than starting a new denomination/denominations.

I know there are a lot of questions here, but as I said before, I don't personally know anyone who comes from an Anglican background so all of your opinions matter a lot to me. Thank you all again for your time!

 

I think only the communion with the Communion (Canterbury etc) can make one Anglican. For this reason I don't think the Continuing churches are really Anglican. They can provide the theology but commit something that Anglicanism of all the Protestant churches consider a sin- schism. Schism is a grave sin near that of heresy itself.

As far as an ACNA parish being preferred or not, it's not about that, it's about orthodoxy. So I say try them all out, the TEC parishes and the the large ACNA one together. The more the merrier!

I don't think ACNA is a temporary continuing denomination at all. They are totally different from the Continuers. But if it never enters the Communion that cancels out what I just said. Then again consider also that TEC position isn't stable either and they could be forced out due to heresy. I say don't worry about the larger mega politics- support the conservative parish at your local level.

Yes that's true, and it were true about 40 years ago when the Continuers started their sinful schisms that evacuated many conservatives out of TEC. We live in the world we live in today. Men made grave mistakes before and we today have to make good with what we have. It's probably the only issue I don't have a good answer on.... the continuers are just as guilty as the liberals. ACNA hasn't left, they were excommunicated by the TEC leadership which is what makes them so important and so different.

 

Peace and blessings, Justin!

Forgive my little intrusion, as I am a liberal!

I am not sure about the American situation, but the Canadian one is a little different. A lot of people assume that the ACoC (Anglican Church of Canada) is in steps behind TEC, but I think it is a little different, since the authority in the ACoC does not force the local parishes to choose, and thus conservatism is as welcome as liberalism in parishes and in individuals, and to be does conform to a non-confessional national Church.

There are some Continuing Anglicans in Canada, such as the 'Anglican Catholic Church,' or AMiA. HOWEVER, we do also have (in Canada, as far as I know), the ACA, or the Anglican Communion Alliance, which seeks to be a conservative voice in the Anglican Church of Canada, and thus within the Anglican Communion at large. I am not sure if this American ACNA is part of the Anglican Communion or not.

I find that it is important to be part of the Anglican Communion simply because it expresses continuity of the Apostolic Succession. The smaller the fragments of subdenominations there are, it seems they become more and more evangelical. More important for me than the personal beliefs of individuals, is the Sucession of the Apostolic Orders, and the Anglican Church of Canada within the Anglican Communion, to me, reflects that.

I actually think you might find a happier home in Eastern Orthodoxy. Inasmuch as they may have racially segregated congregations, there are English liturgical Orthodox parishes out there! You will find more theological conservatism and orthodoxy within the Eastern Orthodox Church.

My own personal beef with both the big Roman Catholic Church (cradle Catholic right here!) and the Eastern Orthodox Church is the absolute claim to being THE Original Church. One-true-church-ism is not my thing, and while the Anglican Communion does not claim to be THE Church of the Apostles, it is ONE of the many Churches of the Apostles: of which such branches and churches constitute the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Faith.

 

I have never heard of how the Ancient Church tore down images of Christ; this is news to me! Do you have any resources on hand that I can read about this? I have heard of ancient catacombs containing images of Madonna and Child, and many quote the Bible regarding how Christ is the very image of God the Father.

 

Thanks for answering all of these questions and please excuse my ignorance on this topic, as well as others.

I had no idea that ACNA was excommunicated out of the TEC by the leadership there. I knew some were, but I didn't think all or even most were. You do make an excellent point about schism by the way; it's one of the reasons I want to join an apostolic church and not, for instance, a Lutheran church (other than the actual theology).

I will definitely consider both options carefully and possibly attend both churches as you suggested to gauge which one works better. Perhaps I will end up with one foot in each door, so to speak. Thank you again for your help and advice, it has been very useful to say the least!

 

Dear Lux Christi,
Thank you for intruding (just kidding)! I really appreciate any and all opinions I can get from all viewpoints. I actually agree with you that, in many ways, the most important thing really is apostolic orders. Without them, I think there are a whole lot of other issues that come into play. Again, this is a major reason why I am interested in the Anglican Church and not some other conservative church which doesn't have apostolic orders, such as a Lutheran church.

I won't get into specifics about my personal theological beliefs here because it isn't particularly relevant to the conversation at hand, but I am definitely OPEN to the idea that certain orthodox teachings COULD be wrong, but not that they definitely are wrong. I have studied the history of the early church pretty closely and have found that there has always been wide disagreement on a whole host of issues, especially in churches that could actually trace their lineage directly back to an apostle. So, with that said, I don't necessarily have a problem with certain issues being "up for discussion" or even tolerated. I think that it would be OK for various parishes to have leeway on many theological issues so long as the MOST IMPORTANT aspects of Christianity are maintained (and this is a pretty broad category in my view). However, as you alluded to, the TEC is basically forcing many conservatives to conform to their position or get out, and this is creating a very hostile environment for everyone involved.

I greatly appreciate your time and your opinion about the Anglican Communion. I find it very interesting how important it is to so many different people with varying viewpoints in Anglicanism. I guess coming from outside of the Anglican tradition, I just thought it was sort of something that everyone agreed was generally a good thing, but not really a necessary thing...sort of like the United Nations! (although I am not so sure how valuable the UN is at all anymore)

Anyway, I will take your thoughts and opinions into mind and consider them very carefully. Thank you again for your time!
Also, just as a quick note, the ACNA is NOT in the Anglican Communion at this time. However, as far as I know, they are working very hard to change that.

Justin

 

There are many 'images' in Scripture- we are made in the image of God, women are made in the image of men, etc. So I'm only talking about graven images.

 

I go to an Anglo-Catholic parish which emphasises more of the Traditions and Sacramental theology of our Christian forebears. If not for the absent Marian antiphons which most Anglo-Catholic parishes love to recite, the Book of Common Prayer is an essential part of Anglican culture (even if it is more historical appreciation than confessional). Here's one of Cranmer's beautiful renditions of the Collects that probably apply here:

O LORD Jesus Christ, who didst say unto thine Apostles, Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: Regard not our sins, but the faith of thy Church, and grant unto it that peace and unity which is agreeable to thy will; who livest and reignest with the Father and the Holy Spirit, one God, world without end. Amen.​

​

As a cradle Catholic, I am sure that you know this prayer well (I know it through the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo rite). Most Anglican Provinces outside English-speaking countries still retain the conservatism. However, as far as I know, the Apostolic Succession has nothing much to do with the individual priest or bishop, but rather the passing down of doctrine and theology as represented by the First Apostles, and the lineage is its physical representation of that. It makes it a little easier to deal with the push-pull scenario between the liberals and conservatives.

I think that if you participate in a conservative parish in the TEC, you should be fine. Unless you can find, like mine, a theologically conservative and socially tolerant community. From what I have heard with my American Episcopalian brothers and sisters, developing one's spiritual life in the local parish level is good enough. After all, is it not the local community that we should emphasise, brought together by our common Worship? 'We need not to think alike to love alike,' and I am sure that is what Jesus Christ would have wanted from us. Besides, I've always thought that the highest level of authority we need submit to, would be the local Bishop!

Anglican history has been full of conservatives and liberals, staunch adherents and Latitudinarians, Evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics, and everything in between. The very fact that the Anglican Communion can hold such a balance with all of us is testament to tolerance (even if it is testing)!

Good luck with your search, and God bless!

 

T
hank you again for your thoughts and the good advice. I feel pretty encouraged to join the TEC, at the very least, and possibly even the ACNA should they ever join the Anglican Communion and I live a little bit closer to one. Your opinions have been very helpful in coming to that conclusion, as have the thoughts of many other posters!

 

As a cradle Catholic it's been a rough journey over my 44 years -- I never felt comfortable with many items but remained there for the majority of my life. Its been very difficult especially due to family member comments and pressures...
To me there is no perfect church, that does everything 100% correct -- why? Because its full of sinners. But by saying that I don't mean that one should attend a church that celebrates sin and apostasy. To the contrary, one should attend a church that follows biblical faith as handed down thru the apostles.
I personally like reading Acts and some the 1st & 2ns century church fathers to reflect on what the very earliest church believed.
I've been a part of various denominations and attended many others. I will say that you shall know them by their fruit -- by that I mean: how does the congregation treat each other and newcomers, are they involved in the community,is there an active prayer life, is the teaching biblical, is there bible study classes, is there a healthy population of men?
I'm currently attending a conservative TEC parish -- and it's a wonderful place to grow, learn, and be part of a community. I do keep my eyes open though and pray that our diocese (Dallas) doesn't fall into outright apostasy.

 

Great response. I really appreciate you taking the time to weigh in and provide your thoughts.
I too have floated around a lot in recent years, likely for all the wrong reasons, and I agree with you that no church is a perfect community. It does encourage me though that you feel comfortable in a TEC parish. There are several serious ones here but I have been reluctant to join for quite some time because of the views of the national church at large. I will be attending one of them tomorrow though in the hopes that I may find a good spiritual home. Thank you so much for your time again; your thoughts have been very helpful.