Pope Francis 'dismissed Anglican branch as quite unnecessary' By Religious Affairs Editor 6:06PM GMT 15 Mar 2013 The Rt Rev Greg Venables, the Anglican Bishop of Argentina, said that Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, had told him "very clearly" that he doubts about the Ordinariate and thought there was no need for Anglicans who want closer ties with their Catholic counterparts to leave their church. The Ordinariate was set up by Pope Benedict for members of the Church of England and other Anglican churches who wish to be in full communion with the Catholic Church. It is a separate body within the Catholic Church – outside of the normal diocesan structure – which still uses Anglican forms of worship. His decision to set it up angered many within the Church of England who complained they had not been consulted and a snub to Rowan Williams, former Archbishop of Canterbury at the time. Click here for the rest of the article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...sed-Anglican-branch-as-quite-unnecessary.html
This is good, right? Since this happened a couple years ago, what in this regard - if anything - has changed about that thinking since then? Curious.
No real change. Local Roman Bishops do not like parishes that do not answer to them. Pope B16 was told back in the early 90's, when he was a Cardinal, by Steenson and some others, that there were large numbers of Anglicans just waiting to convert under certain conditions. The Anglican Use was born. At the time Steenson was still a Bishop in the TEC. Rome believed them. But Rome never really wants large conversions. When many CoE priest swam the Tiber back in the early 90's after the CoE's abandonment of scripture to start faux ordaining women. Many came back as Rome was not a friendly place for Anglicans. If you have ever watched Star Trek the Next Generation.....I liked Rome to the Borg. I doubt the Ordinariate will ever grow, I know of priests who went into the Ordinariate and are now back in Anglicanism. There have not been any large number of conversions. Fr. Mark
Oh, hmm, interesting. LOL, the Borg! It's kind of unnecessary anyway, isn't it? If there's an Anglican who wants to swim the Tiber, well, they can just do it without having a separate bureaucracy set up I'd think. And I've seen more than a few comments to that effect. However, I recognize that Anglicans who want to be "real" Catholics would like to keep up the Anglican use. However, with that in mind, the article mentions the attitude that the Pope and the Vatican have toward the Anglican Church, as though they are willing to recognize our Church as a true church without needing to create an Ordinariate (sp?). To me that sounds like progress. I mean, not that we "need validation" knowing that we are a part of the true church, but to have others finally agree to that, it seems like a good thing.
Since The Rt Rev Greg Venables made these comments, Rome and the Ordinariate have repeatedly said these were the Archbishops words, not the Popes. Even refers to it at the end of the article. At Vatican II, Rome made the slight change and started calling other groups Churches. They did so to help bring them back into the one true Church which to them is Rome. Back in 1893 when Cardinal Vaughn, English Cardinal, lied to and misdirected Pope Leo on Anglican Orders which led to Leo to state as official Roman Dogma that Anglican Orders are "Absolutely Null and Utterly Void", he (Vaughn) was under the impression if you could show Anglicans they had no valid orders there would be mass conversions. All it did was to paint Rome into a corner. Rome would have to reverse what Leo did, reverse dogma? Rome want do it. So Rome has to be creative to lure Anglicans and others in. So Rome is not agreeing with us or even changing their view of us. Just how they present it. And for the record, in another posting here I showed Roman records which tell us the Church came to England before it went to Rome. The list of the 70 disciples has the name of the disciple who went to England in the 30's. Sent from Jerusalem just a few years after the Resurrection. When Rome sent Augustine in the 7th century, he found a Christian Church. Rome had some strange excuse at to the invasion. But remember, ST Patrick of Ireland was actually British. His grandfather was a Bishop long before Rome arrived. Rome tries to control the history of the Church to show they were dominate and all other under them. When in fact that was never the case, what happened Rome assumed control and used secular rulers to get other Churches under their control. Used the Normans and Spanish to subject the Anglican Church. Work with William the Conquer or aka the Bastard, failed with the two Spanish Armadas to punish the English and bring them back into the fold. Rome will tell you anything to get you under their control. Once in.....the true nature comes out. Case in point......they will call Anglican priest by their title of Father or Reverend up to the time of conversion. The second after.....Mr. They never see the Anglican or Lutheran or Baptist Churches as valid. They are pleasant until they get what they want. They the true nature emerges. My two cents. Blessings. Fr. Mark
Wow, interesting bits of politics and history you've provided, thanks. My husband is a direct descendant of William the Conqueror so I'll have to relay this info to him, LOL! It does help to have the perspective. I'd like to read that other post of yours that you mentioned, if you could point me to it, I'd appreciate it.
Chiming in for a fast reply. I as an ex catholic can not understand why you would want to go to rome.
"Chiming in for a fast reply. I as an ex catholic can not understand why you would want to go to rome." Good Evening Rev, I may assume too much, but thought possibly this was directed at me. If it is, I take no offense as I am sure none was offered. Quickly why I was drawn. I am a Catholic. A Catholic who is Anglican. 5 years ago I did not know that was possible. Why? From what I heard in the Anglican Church from from Reformed or Low Church Anglicans that I was just "playing at being Anglican" "if you want to be Catholic go ahead and go, stop fooling yourself and the parish." So push back from Anglicans. Sadly many Anglo-Catholics heard that, see that written etc. They are not real Anglicans. Then along comes the spider....er Rome. They play upon that. Roman priest tell you how you will be liked, received, it so much better. Anglicans who have crossed the Tiber tell you how great it is to be in the "one true Church". You are told how Rome may have problems, but it is nothing like the protestants. So, told you are not a "real" Anglican priest because of your vestments, using the Missal, holding to theology from the early church is Catholic and out of step with Anglicanism. Had one vestry tell me to use incense was not Anglican but Roman. On the other side, the cheer leaders telling you how great it is, how much you will like it and how much you mean to them. Once there, well Jesus talked about whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones. Rome. No Rome has believers and non believers just as does Anglicanism. But so much of Rome is rotten. Shallow. Banal. Reverent...not. Liturgy is man centered. Communion is all about the congregation. I left Rome last year. Reconciled with my Bishop. Now assist at a continuing parish while waiting for an assignment. When I went to Rome, my protestant friends abandoned me. Most of my Anglican friends. The only Anglican who stayed in touch, an Anglican Catholic Priest who called me. Had coffee with me. Asked about the family. Since I have recrossed.......not one Roman clergy or layman has attempted to contact me. My wife last Sept gave the Roman Bishop a very long, 5 page letter, detailing what we went through. With tears in her eyes she asked for something, anything. She was told to have me call his office to schedule an appointment. Use to take me up to 6 weeks to see him. Anglicanism has change since I left. I have seen it. We are starting to realize the old saying from Ben Franklin "hang together or hang separately". I see the Continuing Churches working together. The Reformed Episcopal Church, of which I am a priest, reaching out. They share the altar/priests with the APA. My REC Bishop spoke with the UECNA Bishop to arrange for me to assist the parish here until such time as he has a parish for me. If I can go out on a limb...maybe just maybe we are maturing as a Church. Even though I will never return to Rome, I have been to two liturgies and they were awful, I can see the draw of Romanism. I believe you can be Roman and save. That expression of Christianity is just too empty for me. Have a blessed Lent and remember.....HE is Risen, HE is Risen indeed. Fr. Mark
Father I am sorry to here that. I think Rome has a lot of problems and a lot of internal conflict. I am sorry to here of your experience. We are blessed thou by every priest the Lord has called. I am part of the APCK. I honestly like to think we are catholic in the best since lf the word. Just not catholic as in Roman.
My understanding of the word Catholic is that it is constructed from the greek kata holos which might well be rendered according to the whole. It is a descriptor, implying the universality of the Church, not simply a diversity of opinion, but a sense of unity with Christians in every age, place and condition. Sadly we have managed to hide out unity quite well from the world, and from ourselves, and people like Francis - Patriarch or the West - seem to be working hard to show our unity and restore our connection to the One Body of Christ. Pax Dominus Vobiscum.
Rev, Last October I was in Huntsville, Alabama and worshiped with an APCK parish, St Charles. Beautiful liturgy and people. Give my eye tooth to have such a parish. Fr. Mark