I've been reading this forum on and off for 8 months or so and thought it time to sign up and say hello, I've really found this forum a great source of information from posters past and present. Just a little background on me, I'm fast approaching 40 and ordinary working class guy, baptised in the CofE and pretty much spent all my adult life bordering on the atheist belief system and all that comes with it, never married as its just a piece of paper to me with my thinking of old! I have kids but something changed since the birth of my daughter last year. I kept an open mind and my ignorant views and foundations slowly started to crumble, after hours if not days of study I fully surrendered to God and prayed for the first time from the heart for forgiveness and for guidance from the Holy spirit. The first thing I did is go to Church for a Sunday service which I enjoyed, I got to speak with the priest at the end and mentioned briefly that I was new and had picked up a King James Bible, first thing he said was I should get a better translation, this confused me a little so did some study so got hold of a NRSV to complement it even though I had a dictionary for archaic words. I ended up sending an email that day directly as I felt it right to let him know who I was, sort of explaining about my predicament and that I'm not just coming to get the baby baptised like most do never to return, that's the first thing a lady thought as she asked are we here for baptism so said no not yet. I was very open and honest but never said anything disrespectful, I suppose I was looking some advice because I made it clear my girlfriend was very willing to get baptised and confirmed as she comes from a non religious background. I was looking forward to some guidance, I never got a reply but the following week after the service the priest awkwardly admitted he's not got round to replying yet but would do which is fair enough. Anyway, I never did get any response! Due to changes with work I couldn't attend the next few weekends but then after that I just felt awkward being honest. I'm certainly not a needy man and never asked anything awkward it was an open goal to get a family involved to come to church. I started to see things differently and it seemed to this priest it was just a job? being baptised in the CofE made it my first port of call, I was drawn to the Anglo Catholic side and belief in Scripture so it was also depressing checking in my village and town I grew up both having a Woman priests, I'm not sexist it's just wrong going on scripture alone! So I've been an at home Bible reader since. Everything I've seen in the media from the Church of England during the lock down has been horrendous, they come across as pompous middle class Liberal Democrats, that priest in Manchester calling for sackings wasn't the icing on the cake it was the Archbishop of Canterbury playing identity politics saying Jesus was black recently a week after saying statues will have to come down. I think during this crisis they have turned more people away to even consider going to a CofE, just my honest opinion coming from knowing nearly nothing. I don't know where this will lead me but I think Gavin Ashenden speaks very well on recent YouTube videos, will it lead me to be Catholic? I don't know. It all sounds so great reading the 39 articles and links from this forums site but the reality is its miles away from the CofE now. I've often thought about contacting that priest via phone but it just isn't worth it, like he's had plenty of time at home doing nothing since the lock down maybe I'm just too much a sinner to have in the small select group. Sorry if this seems a rant and I don't doubt there are many godly people within the CofE I'm just going on my own eyes locally. St Bartholomew the Great in London online services have kept my interest that all is not lost with the CofE but that's a seems a world away from my market town in the Midlands! I try to avoid politics as I've little interest but it seems to me the CofE comes across as a wishy washy lib dems party, these games have nothing to do with the Gospel. Apologies if I come across as attacking, I thought it would be easy to just turn back to Church, repent, get married and lead a true Christian life trying to follow Jesus!
Welcome. I hate hearing stories like that but I know it happens all the time. I was in the US Navy and then the husband of a military family for an additional 4 years. Quite often, my family would visit a church and get an implicit shrug; we were just another military family, we would rotate out in 18-24 months and the church would never see us again so they made no real effort to embrace us as part of their church. I suppose the experience prepared me to be a better priest.
Thanks. I did send maybe a long winded but very honest email as I could tell they thought we was going for baptism only. I would of thought they would embrace sinners more what with the dwindling numbers. I thought eventually I'd get a response with not showing up, my daughter kept going the churches praise and play groups midweek so the priest would often see my girlfriend in attendance. I've often wondered if I should call instead and have been tempted to but it would be awkward to listen to the excuse of being busy as they've had no doubt about it plenty of free time recently. I've read some really great posts on this forum but sitting a home with just the Bible isn't enough, I want us all to be part of a local Church, we do have another which is actually in my Parish boundary but it's low church I think the term is? They don't have the evensong monthly like the one in Town, so never considered it. It makes me sound delicate reading all this back but it does feel like a huge rejection. Maybe they have just given up even trying to get anyone new in, I just don't know. I often wonder if I'd of been ignored if I was questioning about getting married immediately and quizzing about costs, probably not when it comes to business. The irony is I was talking about that in my email anyway on plans. I've done many things back to front!
This was a wonderful post, full of heart-felt concern and a deep longing to reconnect with the church, so it really made a difference for me this morning. As for options, have you investigated the two reformist traditional Anglican movements going on in the U.K. right now: -Gafcon UK, a church plant project established by the international Gafcon movement and especially from within the States here, led by Bishop Andy Lines. -Free Church of England, which regardless of its founding history has become something of a bastion of orthodox Anglicanism under Bishop John Fenwick. He too has many ties to the US, and I’ve met him personally many times.
You are most welcome here, Gav81. I can sympathize with your frustration and feelings of rejection. What you have experienced is not a knock on you, though, it's simply that we are all sinners saved only by God's grace and we all 'miss the mark,' usually by a country mile. So those people you've encountered are not doing things to spite you, they're just muddling along and often failing like any of us do. Their mistakes are no reflection on you and they're not consciously turning you away; they're just too wrapped up in their own problems. Being a Christian does not mean that God hits us with a lightning bolt and suddenly we're perfect people. That priest certainly should have followed up, but please don't let his failure and shortcomings change your faith in God. People will let you down, but God will never let you down. Even when we are not faithful, God remains faithful to us (2 Tim. 2:13). I think that priest may have had experiences that led him to think you would struggle too much with the KJV, but it is an excellent Bible and I recommend it. If you were having difficulty with some words, a MEV (Modern English Version) Bible would be my second choice because it is most faithful to the KJV while it changes the archaic words to their more currently used forms. I hope you will give that priest a second chance (and maybe a third and fourth chance if necessary), but also you might check around to see what other churches you have nearby and consider having a chat with one or two of the pastors/priests/vicars/rectors. Sometimes it's more important for a new or 'young in faith' believer to find the right shepherd with whom you can relate, and who will help you grow in your faith and your knowledge of God's word (maybe even one who uses the KJV!), than it is to have one with impeccable theology or great credentials. (I'd always rather have one who is excited about his faith than one who is going through the motions... there are some of the latter.) As you and your girlfriend grow in knowledge of God's word, I suspect that you both may come to a desire to formalize your commitment to each other in matrimony. The marriage covenant vows are a type and shadow of the unbreakable covenant vow God has made to us through Christ and of the close, intimate relationship we will enjoy with Him for eternity. May the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth. If you like to read, a good book on the subject is "The Miracle of the Scarlet Thread," by Richard Booker.
Thanks and I'd not heard of them before, having a quick look I don't have any Free Church of England close to me unfortunately. I appreciate the info as wasn't aware of these.
Sorry for your struggles. I have prayed for you. If you find a church with a man priest remember that even if he is crazy or teaches false things it does not invalidate his orders so you still have redress to the sacrements.
My apologies for gravedigging an old thread. I should point out that you can come under the oversight of the Free Church of England without there being a parish local to you. They haven't had any Scottish parishes since the 20th Century and yet I am a member for instance. The Free Church of England offers scattered membership to those of us who cannot practically attend an FCE church. Perhaps worth mentioning your predicament to the Bishop Primus, John Fenwick. His email is listed publicly on the website (fcofe.org.uk) so I'm not infringing on his privacy in any way by copying it here: jrkfenwick@gmail.com Praying that you find a good church local to you in which you can receive regular worship even if you end up going for FCE oversight or a similar conservative body.
It is a denomination that broke with the Episcopal Church in the 1870s and is now a member of the ACNA. The Free Church of England and the Reformed Episcopal Church are extremely close.
It's obvious. The Reformed Episcopal Church is the US equivalent to the Free Church of England! (Just following behind Matthew's response with a bit of circular humor.)
The Reformed Episcopal church was started by Bishop Cummins of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America. The final trigger for secession was over ecumenism. Bishop Cummins had taken part in an interdenominational eucharist and was being disciplined for that. However, the energy for the movement came from fears that anglo-catholic practice would soon overtake PECUSA and obscure the gospel. As such, whilst there was certainly more to it than that, the Reformed Episcopal Church has been labelled "AntiTractarian". This labelling was generally accurate at its foundation, despite Cummins' close relations with Muhlenberg who has been adopted by some Anglo-Catholics despite his disagreements with the Oxford Movement. Nonetheless, the REC has gone from being a very low church to now exhibiting a very wide range of churchmanship. It's main "distinctives" now are an all-male clergy and a high view of Scripture, neither of which are particularly unusual, but both of which have come under attack in the Anglican Communion.
I’m in the REC, and the way I have been describing it and the FCoE recently, is that both reacted to perceived unfaithful movements within their respective Provinces, by going in a neo-Puritan direction. This was around 100 years ago. However what redeemed them was that over the last 30 years a succession of classical Anglican prelates were at the helm of each of them. In the REC, many of our early atrocious behaviors have been amended and repented of. The same process is happening in the FCoE. But because they were in the “wilderness” these last 100 years, they missed all the craziness that’s gone on in the mainline Episcopal Church, and the Church of England. So at the very same time that the TEC and COFE are erasing their Anglican heritage, these heretofore ugly duckling splinter groups are redeeming their Anglican heritage and reclaiming a very bright classical Anglican identity. And repenting of schism, both are leading communion efforts to create unified Anglican provinces, in their respective countries. It’s a real privilege.
Aye, I can hardly see Bishop Fenwick fitting in with the early FCofE. I certainly appreciate the radical history and I think it is a valuable part of the Anglican story, but it's not our futue.
Welcome from down under. Many people are part of the church because of the church, and probably as many are part of the church in spite of the church. Bishop John Hazelwood used to speak of this tatty old maiden aunt we love to called mother. None of us should be of the illusion that the Church is perfect, or even that our version of the church is perfect, for the report card for the last 2000 years reads could do better! None the less, none of us get very far in faith without the Church.
One of the main reasons that I left the Roman Catholic Church to join the Anglican Communion is because of this very thing - the 'maiden old aunt' syndrome I suppose. Anglicans are more diverse than Catholics in their 'practice' of the faith, meaning there is more room for all of us of differing opinions. When I was converting, I was told that not all Anglicans are the same, so I should really investigate and not base my decision on the particular parish where I live. This forum is a good example of a wide variety of opinions, and I think for the most part it is done without rancor. I also still belong to some Catholic forums and although they are also divided in their opinions, when it comes right down to it, they have to toe the line or be considered heretics. Anglicans allow more dissention of ideas. My parish suits me to a T, although I am aware that there are many more conservative parishes and dioceses, I love that mine is supported by our local Bishop and is considered 'legitimate' despite differences in opinion from other dioceses. I like being Anglican and feel much more relaxed about my faith than when I was a Catholic.
I did check them out a while back but didn't find anything local. I know I posted this thread a while back now and visited many Churches, Orthodox also. We are finally starting RCIA in the Catholic Church. The big dilemma was about my children and what offers them the best shot of salvation, of course it all starts at home but I've 2 young children and 1 about to start school next year. I know we have primary CofE schools and I went one myself but high school not so, they are atheist factories in my mind! Sure there are plenty of issues in Catholicism but we have found a nice little parish just 10 miles away that offers the extraordinary form mass which we'll be doing RCIA direct with the Priest. Systematic Study of the Catholic Religion by Reverend Charles Coppens was helpful for me https://www.ecatholic2000.com/coppens/study.shtml . It wasn't something that happened overnight as you can see the time it has taken, I suppose wretched sinner's like me like putting things off! I was leaning for Eastern Orthodox for some time but it's not the universal Church for me. In my more stupider times as a youngster I was bound up in nationalism and outright racism due to warped survival of the fittest nonsense. You'll find plenty of that in orthodoxy when you get involved, especially ROCOR parishes. Sure it would of been easier to go along to my local CofE Church but I'm certain the easy way isn't the best. I'm not sure if be illuminated with what sins are at my local CofE when they blatantly post things on social media about the assistant Curate and his male partner Sorry for the mini rant but I thank all for prayers offered, I really tried to stay within the CofE but all I got was nothing, then confusion. It's like all the clergy here have pronoun bios on Twitter, like a splinter cell of the Liberal Democrats political party. I don't need politics just Jesus and his Church.