Goodbye ACNA --> Hello TEC

Where are you getting that from anything I am saying? The Archbishop of Canterbury has no jurisdiction over the Church in America, neither should he. However, we are Anglicans, meaning our Church derives its history from the Church of England. We would do well to anchor ourselves in that tradition. Now, we do not have to be in communion with England, such as we weren't in the early 19th century, however, bishops shouldn't go about making their own churches, such as Mark Lawrence has done.

 

No loyalty for the Scriptures? Loyalty is only a virtue if you are loyal to the right thing.

 

I think I'll be a Christian. And I'll be loyal to those who are loyal to the Word of God and the faith once delivered to the saints. You can be loyal to whomever.

 

Our stories are somewhat similar, but my journey was 10 years on the evangelical side before coming home. It was a personal decision I wouldn't force on anyone else, but for me, it was the right thing to do. Yes I'm conservative, orthodox, fundamental, right wing, pro NRA, whatever label they choose to place on me, but I'm Anglican first and foremost. My faith learned as a child hasn't wavered a bit, and I will follow scripture to the letter, seek God in word and sacrament, and seek to serve Him in others under my watch. I feel I did the church a dis-service by leaving, and part of the current mess can be attributed to myself and others that fled. I can only imagine the outcome of a family of teenagers who's parents abandoned them and left them to raise themselves. May God bless your decision!

Jeff

 

Brother, 10 years ago I would have agreed with that comment, but what I've come to understand is that those are views/opinions that coexist next to my conservative views/opinions in the church. People are not punished or removed for differing opinions as in the fundamental evangelical churches, but rather in Christ's love they engage in conversation, debate, and meet at the altar in agape love. Will there be a gay person at the altar next to me? Possibly, but for most it's not an issue at work, the mall, or at restaurants, and for me it will be no different at church, in fact our church is one of the few who welcomes gays to hear/see/live the Gospel. I trust the Holy Spirit to be more persuasive than any rogue Priest or Bishop.

Jeff

 

If you see your duty and loyalty to a particular bishop or metropolitan as being of greater import than biblical authority, the creeds, councils, constant Agnlican witness, and the common witness of the Communion and Christendom, then I bless you as you follow them, and will pray very hard that you don't follow them into that wide gate that leads to destruction.

 

Beautiful sentiments, Jeff. And I have no doubt that you would engage all church members with love and courtesy. However, my bishop has destroyed a number of parishes that did not toe the TEC party line and ruined the careers of priests who had been previously given assurances that they would be allowed the space to follow their consciences. His Grace wrote a historic parish in my diocese that had decided to make good on its financial duties to the diocese while at the same time respecting the wishes of the majority of donors and members that no offerings would go to finance the national church by sending its dues to the bishop with the instruction that it should be used for diocesan purposes only. This arrangement worked for several years. Then, when Bishop Schori was elected and the college of bishops decided to close ranks, he wrote them a very nice letter, through his attorneys, telling them that they had 10 days to shell out $60K and a full acknowledgement within 6 months that all church property, both real and personal, belongs to the diocese and TEC. Oh and plus an additional $30k within 6 months for the accomodation af being allowed to take 6 months to decide. Plus addtional unspecified amounts to be detailed later on. Now, mind you, prior to that time, the bishop had made no issue at all about this and had made no real indication that he had a problem with the arrangement they were under up to that point. Also in the letter, he told them that he had already drawn up terms for their seperation (which to me indicates he had no real motivation to come to reconciliation). These were the terms:
1. Renunciation of holy orders by all ordained clergy leaving the TEC.
2. Vacate the church premises by all except those who cannot remain faithful to the Episcopal church.
3. Relinquish all accounts, financial records, books and property of the church including all signs and symbols of the church.
It was not until a follow up letter, when the parish leadership asked the Bishop to explain himself, that he told them that he would not accept their "designated gifts", and that they would have to give directly to the Diocesan Operating Budget, a portion of which would go to support the agenda of The Episcopal Church.
That was back in 2007, the diocese and the parish are still engaged in litigation, and the congregation has been locked out of its historic place of worship, home to John and Charles Wesley and Geroge Whitefield, since 2009. They have since been worshipping in different congregations that have graciously allowed them space. Prior to this act, the parish had no plans to leave and no desires to. They only wanted the room to worship and live as their consciences and the Scriptures dictated. Not satisfied with that. The bishop moved on to a number of other parishes, telling them to shut up or the same would happen to them. I watched the whole diocese begin to disintegrate before my eyes. That Bishop retired, and the new bishop made his first public act, before even being consecrated, to say that it's all the fundamentalists's fault, that they are destroying the faith and that he had a different view of Christiantiy. Where is that love and tolerance and room at the altar you talk about Jeff? Does such courtesy only extend to homosexuals and not to orthodox anglicans? Why would anyone stay under such conditions? Any time I read the Episcopal News I am reminded over and over why I must leave, and wonder why any orthodox Anglican would ever stay. I have said it before that homosexuality and abortion are not salvation issues in my mind. But TEC has abandoned any right to claim itself as Anglican, by its abandonment of scriptures and essential Christian (not to mention Anglican) doctrine. All they have left is membership in the AC. Good for them. But, if that is what it means to be Anglican then I am ashamed to call myself one.

 

It is true that one should avoid schism, properly speaking. However, there's also a time when one cannot be in communion with the ungodly: "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Eph. 5:11)

 

You're putting words into my mouth. Of course, we must be loyal to the Scriptures. Part of being loyal to the Scripture is being loyal to the Church, Scripture commands this.

 

Cranmer didn't leave the Church when the bishops were promoting the heresies of Romanism.

 

That is a false statement.

So, you're saying that all those faithful Anglican Christians who have formed orthodox Anglican communions in the face of TEC apostasy are not Anglicans. I say they are, and the true separatist is the TEC -- and you.

 

But TEC has ceased to be "the Church" -- it has apostatized. Read what 2 Cor. 6:14-18 says that you should do.

 

Very true, and as I have stated, I am there to experience and receive the "inclusion" they boast of, but expressing my beliefs in love and grounded in scripture. My tenure may be permanent or very short, but I will not waiver.

Jeff

 

Good luck. I tolerated their heresy, just wish they could have been similarly tolerant of my orthodoxy. I hope you have a better experience than mine.

 

This isn't about "tolerating" heresy. I don't tolerate any heresy. I regularly send letters of rebuke to the Presiding Bishop and I have several disciplinary charges being sent to the Disciplinary Board for Bishops. I don't take Communion from openly heretical bishops or other ministers. It is, however, a matter of being a loyal Christian.

 

I don't understand. Are you saying that Episcopalians who leave aren't Christians?

 

I'm saying they are sinning by leaving and they need to repent of that.

 

Only if the Church is being loyal to the Scripture...

 

And is there nothing that orthodox Anglicans who continue to sit in and support a church that condones heresy and consecrates heretics need to repent for?

2 Corinthians 6:14-17: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?"


Galatians 1:8: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."