Hi. This is a real beginner question so bear with me please. I'm a bit confused. I was raised a Baptist and in my childhood Church we believed that when you died you either went to heaven or hell and we had an idea of our relatives looking down on us as we lived out our lives on earth. I realise that there is a similar belief in the Catholic Church involving praying to Mary, Saints etc. I'm a bit confused how this fits in with the idea of the Final Judgement. Can someone explain this belief please? Thank you
You might the following article to be enlightening on the subject: https://pulterproject.northwestern.edu/curations/c37-christian-mortalism.html
If 'soul sleep' is true, then our loved ones are not in any position to hear our prayers and intercede for us. The RCC (and I think the Orthodox churches) get around this problem by declaring certain deceased individuals to be 'saints' for whom God made an exception and took their souls to heaven because they were so especially virtuous. Thus they can encourage prayers to those 'saints.' Of course, the Bible labels all faith-filled disciples of Jesus as saints. It teaches us that God imputes His very own righteousness to us saints, and it just doesn't get any better than that! So if there are souls of saints in heaven, they would include all of us who have departed this life. As to whether this is the case (rather than 'soul sleep'), scripture is not entirely clear. We do see Paul writing (1 Cor. 5:6-8) that he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord, which sort of implies an either-or situation. We also have the great multitude in Rev. 7 who were in heaven after coming out of the Great Tribulation, and that tends to run contra to the 'soul sleep' idea. And the story of the rich man and Lazarus may be taken as an indicator that deceased people are conscious of their existence after death, too. Aside from the Bible, we have many accounts of people who were clinically dead and who later revived to tell of having found themselves in either a place of great peace & beauty or a place of torment by demons. I tend to think that the soul (or spirit, if you will) does not sleep after physical death. It is worth noting that either some or all redeemed believers are resurrected at a different time than, and prior to, the unredeemed. Rev. 20 tells us: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:4-15). Also, Rev. 14 lists two separate 'harvests' of people; the first, by "one like the son of man," might be the faithful sheep being 'caught away' by Jesus as is taught in 1 Thessalonians 4, and the second (by an angel) might be the harvest of the unrighteous 'goats.'
Soul sleep isn't exactly a "mainstream" belief; I believe your Baptist relatives were right about this one. Traditionally, there's seen to be a "particular judgment" where one's eternal destiny is decided and the souls of the dead wait to be restored to their bodies at the Resurrection. You can see it in Scripture with things like... Revelation 6:9-11, where the souls of the martyrs are not only conscious, but aware that God has not yet judged the world. The souls of Moses and Elijah appear to Jesus in the Transfiguration. Jesus himself calls Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob "alive" in some sense. Jesus tells the thief who had faith in him "today you will be with me in Paradise." The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, though I'll concede that Jesus could have just been telling a story to illustrate a point. Then, at the end of time, everyone faces the "Final Judgment," which you might say is more like a final sentencing, as everyone arrives at their final state, either eternal bodily existence on a new Earth, or whatever you suppose hell to be. Soul-sleep advocates rightly perceive that you don't just go straightaway into your final state when you die (most Christians like to think of "heaven" as a non-physical spirit world), but they go too far in saying you're completely unaware of everything before the Resurrection. I feel it's worth pointing out that for Catholics and Orthodox, you actually can ask anyone in heaven to pray for you, whether they're "on the books" or not, from the Virgin Mary to your kindly old granny.
Well it's all a bit tricky to say the least! I'm not sure what to make of it all. I do get really conflicted about the praying to Saints thing and it isn't something I do really. Do you suppose you could say that death frees us from the illusion of time, we enter eternity, and in a way the future souls exist now and none of this is comprehensible to us? Maybe it isn't helpful trying to define the indefinable? What do I know though.
Personally, I feel like it's rather more effective to ask our Lord for help than to ask the deceased to petition Him on my behalf. Jesus is our great High Priest who is always interceding with the Father for us, and we have a "direct line" to Him. Besides, I can only hypothesize as to whether any deceased person is capable of hearing every prayer on earth addressed to him (or her) in heaven, since only God is all-knowing. For that matter, how can I be certain the deceased persons I'd be praying to actually made it to heaven? They may have seemed godly in life, but only God knows for sure what was in their hearts. If they're in the other place, they are not likely to have any 'pull' with God at all. 1Jn 5:13-15 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
You're in good company! Most Anglicans don't, and historically, the Anglican churches have rejected the practice. I suppose you could say that. The Bible doesn't go into much detail on the "how's" of all this, does it? Probably the same as the rest of us!
I don't think I'm going to give you the answer you want but a few observations. I think all Christians believe in heaven and hell*. When we die God disposes of our souls immediately. We go to either heaven or hell. Once this happens it is our soul's fate for eternity. For this reason the Final Judgement has always confused me a little. I'm not completely sure of its purpose. It isn't a second chance to have your personal judgement at death altered. So when I die if my soul is sent to hell, and I pray God it isn't, I can't hope at the Final Judgement I'll be reprieved and transferred to heaven. I don't believe praying to Mary and the saints has anything at all to do with the Final Judgement. Those Christians who believe in this ask Mary and the saints to intercede with God on their behalf. This is done often for immediate things. Perhaps, topically, one might ask for assistance with exams. Others may ask prayers for a sick loved one. Praying to Mary or the saints isn't linked to the Final Judgement. *I know one example, the Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't believe in hell. However, they deny so many of the fundamental aspects of Christianity that I don't consider them as Christians but as an heretical cult.
I guess the reason I don't go in for praying to Mary or the Saints is for the reasons given above. It seems to me that if I can ask Jesus for help then it doesn't really get much better than that. Why would I ask even one of the big Saints when He listens to me and prays for me? On the other hand, we do ask other Christians to pray for us so ..... I asked because I was under the impression that it was a fairly common Anglican practice. I was clearly mistaken so, my bad. I'm really new to it all so excuse my ignorance
I think your question is pretty well unanswerable for the following reasons: The Bible was written entirely by people who had never actually yet been to either heaven or hell, (except as a visionary experience, in their imagination). Therefore they knew, from actual experience, no better than we do or can imagine. Jesus Christ was the only person ever to KNOW. Jesus is reported as having said to one, (or possibly two), thieves who died alongside him, "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise". One of the criminals who were hanged there kept deriding him and saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed have been condemned justly, for we are getting what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” The sentence he spoke doesn't need the word 'both' in it to be possibly addressed to both of the people participating in the conversation. 'Both' would simply have ensured the possibility that we all enter paradise upon death. Jesus Christ is reported to have said much the same thing to his disciples, and those who believe through their testimony. Death is the way to Paradise and there are many mansions in it, prepared for those who enter, especially those who have already 'died to sin'. Symbolically we are already in it, though baptism into Christ's death. Hell itself must be one of God's many mansions, which will finally be disposed of. & Revelation 20:14. .
There are some particularly high-church Anglicans who do argue in favor of the "advocation of the saints", in which we address them and invite them to pray with (and for) us. It's a carefully nuanced version of what our liturgy actually does, which is to acknowledge "angels and archangels, and all the company of heaven who forever sing your praise to proclaim the glory of your Name". So (as per ancient catholic and biblical custom) we do pray with the Saints, but the developed custom of addressing them directly is the point of contention that we largely shook off during the Reformation, despite the protestations of some among the aforementioned Anglo-Catholic wing. With that in mind, you may find it a special comfort and significance to bring that mentality into your own prayers. When you take up the Daily Office (especially the Psalms!) in a quiet room by yourself, think on the Saints of old (and, trusting in God's mercy, all the faithful departed in the Lord) praying those Psalms along with you. As this pertains to the final judgement, keep in mind that the day of the general resurrection has not yet occurred, so the faithful departed (whether canonized Saint or not) are also in a state of waiting for that consummation of their salvation. This is why we pray for the dead, too, as a matter of fact. Not that we're praying their way through Purgatory as the Romans vainly claim, but that we and they are both awaiting that last day of perfection and triumph - plus we can give thanks that the departed are now at rest from this life's warfare.
If one does not believe in Purgatory I do not see any purpose in praying for the dead. The souls in Heaven cannot enjoy anything better. So for what purpose could we pray for them? The souls in Hell are damned for eternity and our prayers for them would be in vain. So for what purpose could we pray for them? I can only see any purpose in praying for the souls of the dead is that God may graciously reduce their time in Purgatory. Here, our prayers have some hope of being useful.
As the TEC catechism says, we pray that God's will for them may be accomplished. He's not done with them, after all: they at minimum have to be resurrected at the end of time. The 1928 BCP also includes this prayer in the Burial of the Dead:
I think the purpose is cathartic. Praying for our deceased loved ones comforts us who do the praying. But you're correct, it doesn't do anything for the deceased.
Let's just be grateful Jesus has the front door key and can come and go as he likes, like a thief in the night. Satan has nowhere to hide. As the saying goes "We know where you live". .
Yes, however, that does not alter the fate of one's soul at the time of death. When you die if your soul goes to heaven it remains there for eternity. It may be re-united with its body at the final judgement but the person remains in heaven. Therefore, our prayers can have no effect. There is no point us praying God keep them in heaven because He will. We most certainly cannot pray he cast them out of heaven because that will not happen and would be a most inappropriate thing for which to pray. Consquently, I still believe that the only effective prayers are for the souls in purgaory. In one does not believe in Purgatory I see no point in praying for the dead. Of course, it is quite natural to pray for the dead at a funeral service. This is mostly, I suspect, for the comfort of the mourners and also to express our hopes they have gone to Heaven. However, by the time a funeral is held the deceased's soul will be wherever God has sent it.
I would only suggest a minor technical alteration: "When you die, if your soul goes to heaven, it remains with God and in His Presence for eternity." Based on Revelation I do not think we will remain in the place commonly called "heaven" but will live on a "new earth" in our renewed physical bodies along with God the Son in His physical body.
Yes. The teaching that Heaven is the end goal misses the point of the bodily resurrection. Of course, your average American evangelical doesn't really believe in that.