Interesting Thoughts on Original Sin

If the child is born of at least one believing parent, then innocent, at least to start off with, as far as God is concerned, because of The Covenant with its parent.

I think it's important to understand it's not a question of any human regard for the child's 'Holiness' status. It is GOD who considers the child Holy, as far as St Paul here is concerned, and that most probably because of the Covenant cover that at least one PARENT enjoys, through their faith in Christ. (That is what makes the infant 'a child of the promise').

Holiness means essentially 'set apart for God's purposes', and can be considered a sign of 'ownership recognition' by God. Those infants born to both unbelieving parents are (according to other New Testament scripture " Eph.2:11-13. not Holy to God and therefore, other than through God's Grace, not already set aside for God's purposes for the promotion of The Kingdom of God on earth, i.e. as future ambassadors of Christ to the unredeemed, covenant bound to God, through the faith their parent has in Christ, the HEAD of the New Covenant. Whose children belong to God, and his purposes already, through their Covenant obligations.

The child will still be held responsible for its own sins until it, itself with the New Covenant, through faith in Christ as Saviour and obedience to Christ as LORD and God.

The difference between 'a child of the promise' and a child, 'alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and a stranger to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world', is that the 'child of the promise', has only the option of breaking Covenant with God and throwing away their inheritance or keeping Covenant with God and continuing with Christ as their Lord and Saviour, by faith, their life long. The child born 'outside of the covenant of promise' may be offered opportunity a multiplicity of times to enter the New Covenant, by responding positively to The Gospel whenever they comprehend it through being 'called' by The Holy Spirit, but is in no position to reject a promise of salvation, they do not already posess.
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Oseas where did you get this information from?

 

Hello Agnostic, how long has it been since we've seen each other?

Answering your interesting question, that is how I interpret 1 John 5:7 KJV

 

I thought that might be the case. You seem to be big on the word of God, but 1 John 5:7 and 5:8 as well may not be the word of God.
Check out the Johannine comma.

 

1 John 5:7 is an interpolation. It’s not part of the biblical canon if the standard is its original written form.

The KJV is a beautiful translation and deserves to be read and studied for its many literary qualities, but it should not be the basis of exegesis when there are far more accurate English translations available to consult, if one cannot read the original Greek.

 

You may embarrass yourself with biblical versions, but I not, for I know the Person of GOD the Father, and I know the Person of JESUS, and I know the Person of the Holy Spirit. By the way, no man knows JESUS, the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father (the Word), save the Son, and he to whomsoever JESUS, the Son, will reveal Him.

1 John 5:7KJV- There are three that bear record(testifies) in heaven, (1) the Father(GOD the Father), (2) the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS) (3) and the Holy Spirit (who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a Person- the 3rd Person): and these three are One.

Hebrews 1:1-8 King James Version

1 GOD (the Word is GOD) , who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son (the Word made flesh-JESUS), whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of GOD' Person(the Word made flesh), and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when GOD bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of GOD worship Him.

7 And of the angels He saith, Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son - JESUS -, GOD the Father saith: - Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Aleluiaaa!!!

 

Read my post #146 for your better understanding.

 

I have, and I don't

 

I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled. ...

1 John 5:6-12
6This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one that testifies, for the Spirit is the truth. 7There are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree. 9If we receive human testimony, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has testified to his Son. 10Those who believe in the Son of God have the testimony in their hearts. Those who do not believe in God have made him a liar by not believing in the testimony that God has given concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.​

The text that you want to ram home is referred to as the Johannine Comma. If you would like to know a bit more about it I suggest you read the Wikipedia article on the subject, which can be found here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannine_Comma

It seems at some stage someone has interpolated into the text what they believed in meant in order to ram home a point. Without the Johannine Comma, it would seem that the three that bear witness are The Spirit, The Water and the Blood.

You seem to feel that all of us are incapable of reading the text without textual anomalies, including irregular capitalisation, bolding, and explanatory insertions. What this says, is not that you want me to understand text, but rather that you want me to understand scripture the way you do. This suggests that you don't trust scripture and you don't trust the spirit, however, I don't imagine that to be the case. It would be better if you quoted scripture, and then in a separate paragraph make the point you wish to make.

Exegesis - formed from Greek - means what we can read out of the text.

Eisegesis - form also from Greek - means what we can read into the text.

In plain language, Exegesis is good, and Eisegesis is bad.

Now even though I fully appreciate trinitarian belief, ramming it into the text of 1 John 5:7 is not necessarily a good thing, firstly because it robs the text of the meaning that may otherwise be appreciated, and also because it says we don't trust the text, we have to add our bit to it so people will get it.

I ask you please to stop doing it.

 

Why not? Are you speaking of the consummate sin? First, what was /is the original sin? What is the root of consummate sin? What really did happen first?

For example, what was Cain's sin? It was to invent a peculiar way, fruit of his own mind, I would say his own human way in offering an offering to GOD, lets say, a human cult, to GOD. GOD did not accept him, nor his offer. Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waters pouts; Cain did not please GOD, then he stayed unprotected and an easy target to be taken by the Devil, and the Devil owned/took him for himself, and Cain was used under the influence of the Devil.

The Devil killed Abel through Cain because Abel pleased GOD, and so it continues to this day killing anyone who pleases GOD and is pleasing to GOD.

Revelation 6:9-11KJV

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not Judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. Proverbs 18:21

James 3 - King James Version

1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.

4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.

5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:

8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.


The Word is GOD, and self-executing.

 

My dear Botolph

Thank you for your reply

See, please, my comments you replied is about three that testifies IN HEAVEN - John 5:v7

But your comments above is about three that testifies IN EARTH - John 5:8-13

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not GOD(the Word is GOD) hath made Him a liar; because he believeth not the record that GOD(the Word is GOD) gave of His Son.

11 And this is the record, that GOD(the Word is GOD) hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

12 He that hath the Son (the Word made flesh) hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God (the Word made flesh) hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the NAME of the Son of God (JESUS, the Word made flesh); that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the NAME of the Son of GOD. - JESUS

 

see post #150

 

Oseas, a question for you to answer any way you like, for instance, by offering us your own opinion or by quoting scripture at us.

Q. If Jesus Christ, fully human, fully divine, presumably uniquely not under the curse of original sin, had not been crucified by wicked men and the princes of this world, would he have lived forever on the earth? What do you think? What does The Word say?
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Tiffy

The Word made flesh -JESUS- has the answer for your question, He is the Greater Light who came in the fourth Day, or around 4000 years after Adam-Genesis 1:16 combined with John 5:17.
What did He say? John 12:24 - 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. It's that.

It's that. And the lesser Light, who receives light from the Greater Light, must only say the same, for he reflects light from the Greater Light - John 16:12-15. Check it.

 

My comments you replied is about three that testifies IN HEAVEN - John 5:v.7 - There are THREE that testify IN HEAVEN, the

Father (the Word), the Word(the Word made flesh), and the Holy Spirit: and these three ARE ONE.


Your comments above is about three that testifies IN EARTH - John 5:8-13

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree IN ONE.(as above)

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of GOD(the Word) is greater: for this is the witness of GOD(of the Word) which He hath testified of His Son. (Hebrews 1:1-3. Check it.)

10 He that believeth on the Son of GOD hath the witness in himself:
he that believeth not GOD(the Word is GOD) hath made Him a liar; because he believeth not the record that GOD(the Word is GOD) gave of His Son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id9yPwhW9JU

 

You seem to feel that all of us are incapable of reading the text without textual anomalies, including irregular capitalisation, bolding, and explanatory insertions. What this says, is not that you want me to understand text, but rather that you want me to understand scripture the way you do. This suggests that you don't trust scripture and you don't trust the spirit, however, I don't imagine that to be the case. It would be better if you quoted scripture, and then in a separate paragraph make the point you wish to make.

 

Actually that does not answer my question at all. Was Christ saying that 'ALL grains of wheat', (human bodies), must needs 'die' to bear fruit, or just HIS body and not ours?

If it is ALL grains of wheat, (human bodies) which should thus bear fruit, then death is a natural consequence for the flesh. As soon as the incarnation happened, Christ had to die. It was inevitablely unavoidable for his body, just as it is for the rest of the human race. Thus death of the flesh is natural. i.e. an essential part of our very nature.

You seemed previously to be quoting scripture in an attempt to refute this obvious truth in a reply to me.
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Untampered quote of 1 John 5:6-12:

What this has to do specifically with original sin escapes me.

 

JESUS was speaking exclusively of His body, of course, He was the only who was not born from the dust of the earth, in other words, He was the only who was not born from the Devil like human beings. These already born of the sin, all born dead by nature, their breath is only in the nostrils. JESUS once said to a disciple: Follow me; and let the DEAD bury their dead: Do you understand?

They which be not born again, I mean not born from the water, that is from the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD-, and of the Spirit -GOD is Spirit- they will never be a partaker of the divine nature to live for ever, by the way, who is worthy of it, as is written in Luke 20:35-36? take a look to understand better.

You need to know JESUS more accurately. What you said has not any sense, you are thinking the body of JESUS was equal your body and of those which are like you. Have you never read? John 10:17-18:

17 My Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Luke 9:22 - The Son of man MUST suffer many things, and be REJECTED of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be SLAIN, and be raised the third day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6mFtga-d0w