Is Genesis all literal, all allegory, or somewhere between?

I see this as a thinly veiled appeal to an epistemic primitive. This effectively allows you to dismiss anything that does not conform to your position without the need for rational discussion. As such I will not address it. If your argument was a little clearer I might be able to see a Montanist position in your argument, but alas such clarity is not apparent.

Always be ready to make your defence to anyone who demands from you an account of the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and reverence. 1 Peter 3:15​

 

Friend, I always quoted the Word of GOD, because the Word is GOD-John 1:v.1. GOD is the Truth, understand? reason by which I testify that what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD. You can do nothing against the Truth, but for the Truth: your speculations, imaginations, presumptions, conjectures, and opinions trying to interpret Scriptures, they mean nothing and are good for nothing, by the way, that's exactly how the Enemy likes the Christians to do it.

 

Actually the Word WAS God, (according strictly to what you are calling the Word of God, (wrongly because the BOOK is not the Word of God, - Jesus Christ is the Word of God, with a capital 'W'. The Bible, what you are claiming to be "the Word of God" is a collection of the scriptures, selected by The Church, which contain the Message to mankind FROM God, for those who read and hear those messages, delivered by the servants of God over many generations.

I think we all understand that, so your question mark is impertinent.

Who as I previously pointed out WAS Jesus Christ, and still IS.

If your researches into TRUTH are restricted ENTIRELY to the scriptures you choose to call the 'Word of God- which YOU claim idolatrously to actually BE God', then you must be sadly lacking in the other knowledge necessary to appreciate TRUTH, concerning some of the matters you are expounding upon.

The Bible is nowhere mentioned in the verses you quoted here. It is from the Holy Spirit that the things of the Spirit are discerned, and discerned from everthing that was made by God, those things of the Spirit are by no means restricted to what is written in the words of The Bible even though many of them undoubtedly are found there by those who seek the truth.
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I sometimes forget that I've had Oseas on "ignore" for several months and haven't seen his posts. So I'm taking a brief look now, and here is what I have to say about the "word of God" issue.

If one looks at the many New Testament instances of this phrase, "word of God," it should become apparent that in almost all instances it's referring to the message from, and about, God. More specifically, the message is the Gospel: the good news that God incarnate (Jesus) was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, proved His identity with thousands of miracles, gave His life on the cross to redeem us from the penalty we deserve for our sins, rose from the dead, and thereafter ascended into heaven after promising to one day return. This is the "word of God" most often referred to in the N.T. of the Bible.

Now, it is true that all of the books of the Bible are, corporately, a written message from God to man. But we must remember that when all those references to "the word of God" were written in the NT, the Bible as a completed collection had not yet been put together. It is not wrong to refer to the Bible as "the word of God," but we must be careful to not anthropomorphize the Bible: that is, we must not characterize the Bible as a sentient being with the powers or abilities of deity. We must not think of the Bible as God or deify the message itself, otherwise we fall into the error of worshiping words inked on paper as if they were God Himself... is this not idolatry?

There is a verse of scripture that is often quoted (and mischaracterized) in certain Protestant circles, namely, Hebrews 4:12. I will quote through verse 14 for better context.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Some Protestant preachers will say that this "word of God" in verse 12 is the Bible. They will hold up the Bible and say that the words in the Bible are "quick (that is, alive) and powerful" and able to discern the difference between a person's soul and spirit so as to even be able to separate one's mental thoughts from one's innermost (spiritual) intents. This false interpretation ascribes actual life, rationality (the ability to think and reason), and supernatural capabilities to the compilation of words in the leather-bound book.

Does God give life, thinking ability, and godly powers to written words? Of course not. So then, what did God really mean when He guided some person to write this letter? Let's look again.

Only God can know the thoughts and intents of a man's heart. Yet the "word of God" (v. 12) is supposed to know our thoughts. Is the leather-bound book God? Is it actually living, breathing, and reasoning? Surely not. But what if this particular usage of "logos" (the word) refers to Jesus? We know from John's Gospel that Jesus is called the "logos". This is because Jesus came to earth, not as merely a messenger, but as the living, incarnate message of, from, and about God. He said, if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. Jesus presented Himself in the flesh to mankind as the living message of God. The Greek language had one good word for this: "logos." Unfortunately for us, "logos" is also the word that would normally be used for any message (written or even verbal); in those times it might have referred to a simple message from one person to another on any subject. Most times in the N.T. it is used to indicate the verbal message of Jesus' birth, redemptive death, and resurrection; for example, in Acts 13:44-- And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God-- those people gathered to hear what was to be said about Jesus. We cannot ascribe actual life, rational thought, or deity to the words coming out of the apostles' mouths. At best, we can acknowledge that the truth of the Gospel message has the potential to change the hearts and lives of the hearers -- but only if those hearers are open and responsive to it.

Let's summarize and put it all together. Why should we think that the "word of God" in Hebrews 4:12 refers to Jesus (the living message of God) rather than the written record? We should think so because, first, we know that the leather-bound book is not sentient and can't know people's thoughts. Second, neither are spoken words a sentient being with godlike powers. Third, we are given the truth of the matter in the next verse (13): Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. This provides the proper context for verse 12. "He" and "him" cannot be the Bible! Verse 13 clearly is talking about God the Son when it says that He, the "logos" of God, sees every creature. Jesus is "Him with whom we have to do." Verse 14 goes on to mention that He is our "great high priest" in heaven. The context of the entire passage shows us the truth: the "word of God" that can discern our thoughts and intents is Jesus, not the Bible.

Outside of Hebrews 4:12, I know of no other scripture verse that would lead one to mistakenly ascribe godlike abilities or Godhood to the Bible itself.

 

This environment within which we are talking of the Word of GOD is holy. Holy, holy, holy, it the Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. Fisically or materially we are stayed in this Anglican site, but spiritually we are speaking in a high and heavenly/celestial place in Christ-Ephesians 1:v.3, understand? and so on-check it. For better understand, compare what JESUS did say to the Jews: He said to them: "Ye are from beneath; I am from above". And John the Baptist did say: He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all-John 3:31.

That said, I want to left clear that it is not the case "to dismiss anything that does not conform to my position"(???), in fact it is the testimony of GOD being greater than any human conception, even if it is rational. As it is written: "Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of GOD in a MYSTERY, even the hidden wisdom, which GOD ordained before the world unto our glory-1 Corinthians 2:6-7. These things belongs exclusively to a celestial environment and are all of above, not of beneath, this environment is wonderful and is specific of the Kingdom of GOD and it is only for His elected people-Revelation 11:15-18- this is a high place in Christ JESUS evidently.

​

As I above said, we speak the wisdom of GOD in a MYSTERY, even the hidden wisdom, which GOD ordained before the world unto our glory- maybe this frame yet seems not apparent for you, but as Paul Apostle said to the Church of Colossians, "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of GOD-Colossians 3:1.

And the author of Hebrews said: Hebrews 1:1-3
1 GOD, who at sundry times and in DIVERS manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days (last two days or last two millenniums) spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE image of His Person -Person of GOD, the Word- the Word is GOD- and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Hallelujaaah!!!

Honestly, I do not know word more powerful than the Word of GOD, in fact I read a lot of things mainly in internet, and when I compare with the Word of GOD...I remember of what GOD said : " He that hath my Word, let him speak my Word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord. Is not my Word like as a FIRE? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Jeremiah 23:28-29

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him) and LORD of lords

Messiah, HWV 56: Part II: Hallelujah! (Chorus) - YouTube

 

Well said, @Rexlion.

I can say that the otherwise pointless exchange with @Oseas has inspired me to go back and reread the Enuma Elish and the Epic of Gilgamesh. The parallels between them and Genesis (along with parts of the Psalms and Isaiah) are even more striking than I remembered.

 

Hebrews 1:1-3
Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,​

My brother in Christ, be careful for it might seem when you use bold, italic, and Capital Case when quoting scripture, you may well be trying to make it mean something other than what is intended. I think you should be prepared to let scripture speak for itself. Your insistence on the KJV leads me to think you have little Hebrew or Greek to sustain the discussion, in exegeting the text. The most positive thing I can say to you at the moment is Merry Christmas.

_______________________

side-note. For some time now I have been using the free version of Grammarly which is an app that helps cover a range of tidy spelling and grammar issues. I believe this has helped me in forums, and other places, covering me against little foibles in language - and yes we all know English is peculiar and breaks all its own rules all the time. Now I am a native English Speaker with a post-graduate degree, and I recognise that this has helped me, and those who read the things I write. I would recommend it to all, both to those who primarily speak English and to those for who it is a 2nd language, as a really handy tool to help be sure that people can more easily understand what you are writing. ​

 

What? Unfortunately what you said has nothing to do with the Word of GOD. Who is first? The Word, i.e. GOD, GOD the Father, or JESUS Christ, the Word made flesh, or GOD incarnated around 2000 years ago in fulfilment of the prophecy?-Isaiah 7:v.14. Before these past 2000 years, JESUS was still in the bosom of the Father - the Word - as said John the Baptist-John 1:18 - have you never read this?

Unfortunately your testimony of the Word of GOD has nothing to do with the Word of GOD, what you said is from your own, your thinking is from a human perspective, not from GOD's perspective. --> JESUS left very clear: I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved-John 5:34. Actually, you should testify of JESUS according the Word of GOD, i.e. according the Holy Scriptures, the Word is GOD. Remember: JESUS left very clear saying: He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said (AS IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE), out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Your testimony of the Word of GOD is very very weak and without understanding of the Word of GOD, the THINGS you said is from your own, not from GOD's Word, the Holy Scriptures, it is in no way able to replace the testimony that GOD Himself gives of His Word, yes, He himself gives testimony of His Word, whose Word is from everlasting to everlasting.

Firts there is not any kind of idolatry with the things concerning to the TRUE GOD, idolatry are the things adopted by "Christians" which pertaining /belonging to the Devil. Your testimony above is not according the Truth of GOD, reason by which I always testify that what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD is Truth, GOD is Life, GOD is Light, GOD is Spirit, and is from eternity to eternity.
You can do nothing against the Truth, but for the Truth: your speculations, imaginations, presumptions, conjectures, and opinions trying to interpret Scriptures, they mean nothing and are good for nothing, by the way, that's exactly how the Enemy likes the Christians to do it.
The natural man receiveth not the things of the SPIRIT of GOD: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the SPIRIT of man which is in him? even so the things of GOD knoweth no man, but the SPIRIT of GOD.

If you had discerned by the Holy Spirit you would remember what GOD says of His Word wtitten in the Bible, the Holy Scriptures, according Isaiah 30:8, and 34:16, and Jeremiah 30:2, and Daniel 9:2, among others references in the Bible or biblical references:
Isaiah 30:8 - Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
Isaiah 34:16 - Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
Jeremiah 30:2 - Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
Daniel 1-2
1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

 

Thanks brother, but I should clarify that my intention is only to highlight and emphasize the greatness of the Truth and the virtues/merits/values of God's work. Only that.

 

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, κα ὁ λόγος ἦν πρς τν θεόν, καὶ θεός ἦν ὁ λόγος.
In the begining was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
John 1:1​

I suspect you failed to apprehend the point that @Tiffy was making altogether.

You have laboured this long and hard, and I have assumed that you are intending us to think about John 1:1. The question that begs to be answered is the relationship between Logos and Graphos. It seems clear to me that the Logos of John 1:1 is an intentional reference to the Passage in Genesis 1:3 where the word that God utters is Let there be light. The creative dynamic of the divine word in creation is the same divine word that tabernacles in our midst in verse 14 of John 1.

The people in the main here are worshipping Anglican Christians, and as such suggesting that they may not have read the first 18 verses of John's Gospel is fairly dismissive. It is assigned in most lectionaries we use to be read at Christmas, and at other times. In some Churches, these verses are read as the conclusion to the Eucharist - known as the last gospel. This passage in heartland material for Anglicans, who have consistently for the better part of 2000 years held the incarnation of the word, the very heart of Christmas as a crucial part of our salvation. Anglicans are known to say, that when we get the incarnation wrong, we determine that we will also get the atonement wrong.

Jesus is the fulfilment of prophecy, and not simply Jewish prophecy, but also Samaritan Prophecy, and indeed as John tells us at the end of chapter 4, the Saviour of the Cosmos. (the greek is soterion ton cosmou which is I think a little lacklustre translated as saviour of the world).

 

Well, interpretating / analysing the message above posted, by which the author interprets and teaches his peculiar conceptions about the Word of GOD, it is necessary to judge the content of the message and clarify more deeply the true biblical meaning of the Word of GOD, the Word exclusively of Him, and not of men, as follows:

Well, first, the Word is GOD, by allegory a sharper than any twoedged Sword. Why twoedged?

Two edged / double edged - A sharper than any twoedged Sword: What does it mean?
Same as: cuts, sharpness, threads, insights, wits. The cutting of a blade; sharp part of: good-edged sword. [figuratively] Sharpness of mind; insight. Double-edged- which can have two effects, usually speaking of something that has both good and bad things at the same time.
In the other hand, the Word of GOD as twoedged, or double edged Sword, it means another two things: 1 - Life; 2- Death.

1 - Life
By the Spirit, the Word, i.e. GOD, gives life to the men, or even to mankind; to those who believe in JESUS as the Scriptures say-that is, the Word, i.e. GOD, therefore, even as GOD says.

2 - Death
By the letter, the Word, i.e. GOD, kills the men, not only kills them, but also cast their bodies and souls into the Hell, as said my Lord JESUS: --> Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. NOTE: The Word is GOD, and is self-executing, understand?

The Word is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD.

That said, what the author said above was by the letter of the Word that is sharper than twoedged Sword, so what was written it's not for life, but for death; so it is the bad side of the Word sharper than double edged Sword, which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Be careful, the letter kills, remember Genesis 2:16-17 and 3:1 to 5 - Check it. Only and only the SPIRIT of the sharper twoedged Sword gives life.

May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen.

 

GOD started saying to Moses that there was only and only darkness in the earth. It is evident that after the rebellion in Eden ruled by a Cherub, who was the main rebel, from then on it just got terribly dark spiritually, and the violence grew also terribly among the former rebellious inhabitants of Eden, so the earth kept continually in darkness, and the earth stayed or was without form, and void, separated from GOD completely, separated from the Word, however GOD, i.e. the Word, was among them, and moved among them.

Having passed a certain time, I think around 500 years -a half of Day- it was in the period of evening that GOD, i.e. the Word, started to work in the restoration or restitution of all things. In fact we must see that the self-executing Word, i.e. GOD, began to work a transformation on earth by the manifestation of Himself, saying "Let there be Light and there was Light". God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all-1John 1:5. GOD saw the light, that it was good: and GOD divided the light from the darkness. And the evening and the morning were the first day. About evening and morning see: https://forums.anglican.net/threads/three-days-and-three-nights-in-matthew-12-40.892/page-6

Merry Christmas

 

Oh no, I did not inspíre you to turn away your ears from the GOD's Truth, I mean the book of Genesis you have read and know its content, and unfortunately you also turn unto fables, oh no, I did not inspire you be turned to myths, quite the opposite, for I work with the Word of GOD -the Word is GOD- and He wants you on His side, not on the side of the Enemy who did spread the myths or fables you have mentioned, by which the Enemy attracted you to his side, but you do not discern his trap that carries to death. Be sure that only the Word of GOD is life.

You are eating of the fruit good -the Word of GOD- and of the fruit of Evil. Dont you remember, or, did you forget? GOD warned since the beginning, saying: Genesis 2:16-17 and 3:1 to 5 :

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Dont't you discern you cannot drink of the cup of the LORD(in this discussion the content -Genesis), and the cup od demons(in this discussion your "Enuma Elish and the Epic of Gilgamesh".

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD -the Word is GOD- .

Genesis 3:1 to 5
1 - Now the serpent (the Devil) was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. (The Devil works with the letter of the Bible and kills men, the souls, that is one side of the twoedged Sword). And he(the Devil) said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 - And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 - But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 - And the serpent(the Devil) said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (The Devil lied, evidently)
5 - For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The Word of GOD is from everlasting to everlasting. The verses above of Genesis, as well as all Scripture, in the Bible, remain rigorously/strictly in force, without any shadow of variation.

Take the fable / myths you have in your house and burn them. They are of the old Serpent -the Devil, who will be cast down into the bottomless pit from now on-Revelation 20:1-4.

Be careful or then get ready

 

4 - And the serpent(the Devil) said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (The Devil lied, evidently) - That is very true.

But are you saying that what the Serpent says as follows is actually the TRUTH? Surely that cannot be so, because the devil ALWAYS lies. (He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44b )

" 5 - For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

The above statement is a lie. It was spoken by the devil. It cannot be true, but it is in The Bible, but is not the words of God, it is the words of the serpent. These words are NOT God's.

Adam and Eve never discovered how to tell good from evil. You can't learn that by eating fruit. God knows that and you and I and everyone on earth, should know that too.
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Are you joking? Of course there are. The creation accounts in the Psalms, Isaiah, Job, and Habakkuk (which predate Genesis 1) mention God’s primeval triumph over Leviathan/Tiamat (Heb. tehom - “the great deep” in Gen. 1). The overall order of events between the creation portion of the Enuma Elish and Genesis 1 is the same. The number of days of creation is the same. The method of creation is the same. Marduk in the Enuma Elish speaks for the divine council just as Elohim does in Genesis 1 (“Let us make man…”). The resulting cosmography - flat earth, solid dome sky, vault of water above the dome, etc. - is identical. The primordial watery chaos and the wind from God that tames it reappears in Gen. 8:1, paralleling Gen. 1:2. What happened prior to Genesis 7 was presented as mythological by the author(s): people living almost 1,000 years, giants and half-breed demigods ruling and tyrannizing the earth, incredible amounts of violence between the same (e.g., sevenfold/seventyfold vengeance), with all evidence and all but 8 offspring of those civilizations utterly destroyed without a trace. Actual history doesn’t purport to begin in Genesis until ch. 9, just as the creation of man takes place after the primordial defeat of the great monsters in the Enuma Elish. Are you sure you read it? To simply assert without qualification that there are no parallels when Assyriologists and biblical scholars have noted them for over a century is just willful ignorance. The biblical account inherited and certainly reworked these stories to fit their own purposes, and although there is probably not a direct literary dependence between Genesis and the Enuma Elish specifically, it is nevertheless not in doubt that these ancient Mesopotamian myths formed the conceptual backdrop to the later biblical accounts, and not just of the creation, but other works such as the book of Esther, just as ancient Canaanite myths formed the backdrop to some of the Psalms, and parts of the books of Ezekiel and Daniel. These are hardly new discoveries…

 

I just re-read the account of the flood, and I didn't see anything suggesting any of these features. What Bible version are you pulling that from?

 

This image may help some who didn't get it. I had a KJV in primary school, with a similar image printed at the end of Deuteronomy. I am not sure why it was there, and I no longer have it, a victim of too many moves I guess. I hope this helps.

And just to be clear, I think Heliocentrism is to be preferred.

 

Here is another, similar diagram. The description of the structure of the universe found in Genesis, Job, the Psalms, Isaiah, and elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible, is identical to the Babylonian schema assumed in the ancient Mesopotamian myths.

https://pursuingveritas.com/2014/05/14/ancient-hebrew-cosmology/