Common Worship

Hey keep going Matthew. You are talking to a fully paid up member of Mebyon Kernow. Unbelievably I am its only member in NZ.
Did you just about choke on your cornflakes when you read PDL say "Cornwall isn't some remote, isolated place. It's part of England."?

 

I mean, you could probably say that today though. I'm sure there's at least one person out there who understands Welsh but no English. But if a bunch of Welsh nationalists put it on a statement we'd all know that's not the real reason for their dispute.

The rejection of the BCP was political, not practical. It was born out of a desire for Cornish autonomy/independence. A state controlled church with a state enforced prayer book is a fantastic way to eradicate Cornish identity - and on the flip side a distinct Cornish church tradition is a fantastic way to keep the embers of rebellion alive. The English BCP was more comprehensible to the average Cornishman than the Latin liturgy, they didn't like it because it was English not because they couldn't understand it.

 

It surprises me not one iota.

Do you speak Cornish?

Have you ever been to Cornwall? I have been many times.

Do you seriously believe Cornwall can exist as an independent sovereign state?

I'm quite sure most people in places such as Cornwall, Scotland and Wales would have politicians fix the NHS, improve schools, make public transport better, improve access to fast broadband, bring down the cost of living, repair the roads, etc. than have grand ideas about becoming the president of an independent state.

If you can access a map have a look where Cornwall is.

 

We have veered very far from the topic of Common Worship.
However, I think it needs be clarified that the party policy of Mebyon Kernow is for a law-making Cornish Assembly within the United Kingdom.
Whilst I suspect that its supporters include persons who would desire, once such an assembly has been achieved, to shift to a position of outright independence from the United Kingdom, rather than independence from England within the United Kingdom, this is not the party policy.

 

Yes it is all off topic and possibly not suitable for this forum. If anyone wants confirmation or clarity on anything I have said please pm me or start a thread if you deem it appropriate. Yeghes da.

 

I see no reason why one English county should have its own law-making assembly. They will almost certainly want tax raising powers. Perhaps those who live in Cornwall would be happy to have more taxes. It would almost certainly be another talking shop of politicians wasting public funds and not really achieiving much useful and practical to the people they are supposed to serve.

 

Ok here are some but by no means an exhaustive list of reasons why Cornwall is not an English county, and compare these reasons to say Kent, Shropshire or where ever you live PDL.

The 1337 Cornish charter (still in force) confirms the King's writ doesn't extend to Cornwall without the Duke's consent.

Properties in Cornwall get their fee simple from the Duchy of C. unlike England which is from the crown and there is a law from 1290 (in England) that says there is only one fee simple in the Realm.

The D.o.C. appoints the sheriff as he is the de jure ruler of Cornwall unlike the English Counties.

The English crown tried to get its grubby mitts on the Cornish seabed and foreshore mineral rights in the 1850's. The Duchy objected and a court case confirmed the Duke of Cornwall as "Head of State" had the right to these minerals.

If you die without a will and relatives etc. your estate goes to the duchy as it has the alliodial ownership of this land, unlike where PDL lives.

Cornwall has the right to veto Westminster legislation unlike English counties.

The 1998 Tamar Bridge Act recognises the river bed and foreshore to be the Duchy's responsibility.

The 1973 Kilbrandon report on the UK constitution recommended Cornwall be described as a Duchy and not a county as 1889 legislation illegally said so.

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Why are there so many Cornish flags on "Doc Martin"?

20 UN countries are smaller than Cornwall.

Why is there a Parliamentary injunction against mentioning the two Cornish charters of 1338?

And finally here is an 8 second youtube video of America's greatest Cornwall supporter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjPnbwdYbrA

 

Where do I begin with your ignorance?

Cornwall is a county of England. It is administered by a unitary authority, like other parts of England, as established by the Local Government Changes for England Regulations 1994 pursuant to the Local Government Act 1992.

The Duke of Cornwall, i.e. the Prince of Wales (the dukedom of Cornwall is held by the heir apparent to the throne) is not the ruler of Cornwall. His Royal Highness has no such powers. Yes, the Duke of Cornwall nominates the High Sheriff (a purely ceremonial office). His Royal Highness, like the Queen, acts on advice, and does not make personal choices.

If you die without a will your estate goes to your relatives according to very exacting rules laid down in law. The state only receives a person's estate if their are no persons to whom it can be given. Simialrly, in the Duchy of Lancaster, they would go to the Queen because she is the Duke of Lancaster. However, the County Palatine of Lancaster is no more an independent sovereign entity than Cornwall.

It is also worth remembering that the Dukes of Lancaster and Cornwall own lands and other properties outside the names of their respective counties.

My ribs are still hurting from laughing when I read this. If you think that can realy happen you are obliged to (a) adduce evidence that this power exists, and (b) that it has ever been successfully exercised.

 

"And Shall Trlawney live, and shall Trelawney die, here's 20,000 Cornishmen who'll know the reason why". Which was that he led an unsuccessful rebellion against the crown, so he died, and 20,000 Cornishmen just had to put up and shut up, with it.
.

 

If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) it is because the D.o.C. has allowed the king's writ to extend to Cornwall in this case.

That is why I said "If you die without a will and relatives etc. "

True but if you die intestate or say you business is abandoned in these areas outside these "counties" , your assets don't default or escheat to those "counties " but to the Crown.

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"Cornwall has the right to veto Westminster legislation unlike English counties.

My ribs are still hurting from laughing when I read this. If you think that can realy happen you are obliged to (a) adduce evidence that this power exists, and (b) that it has ever been successfully exercised."

Perhaps I should make two things clear to start with. If you are a fan of Cornish nationalism, you are probably not a fan of Prince Charles. Secondly the veto of Westminister legislation would apply only to Cornwall.

And fair enough too.
As I mentioned earlier,
The English crown tried to get its grubby mitts on the Cornish seabed and foreshore mineral rights in the 1850's. The Duchy objected and a court case confirmed the Duke of Cornwall as "Head of State" had the right to these minerals, despite whatever legislation the UK Govt was using to get them.This resulted in the British Parliament passing the Cornish Submarine Act 1858 to clarify the situation.

Interestingly here is a list of newish Acts that had to get approval from the D.o.C. to be introduced to Parliament. Why on earth would Charles's permission be needed, could it be that he is the head of state of a country that they want to apply the legislation too. And yes I take your point he didn't and probably wouldn't refuse his consent.

Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970

Land Registration (Scotland Act) 1979

Pilotage bill 1987

Merchant Shipping and Maritime Security Act 1997

House of Lords Act 1999

Gambling bill 2004-05

Road Safety bill 2004-05

Natural environment and rural communities bill 2005-06

London Olympics bill 2005-06

Commons bill 2006

Charities Act 2006

Housing and regeneration bill 2007-08

Energy bill 2007-08

Planning bill 2007-08

Co-operative and community benefit societies and credit unions bill 2008-09

Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction (Lords) 2008-09

Marine and Coastal Access (Lords) 2008-09

Coroners and justice bill 2008-09

Marine navigation aids bill 2009-2010

Wreck Removal Convention Act 2010-12
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Sorry about all this distraction folks, I'm meant to be getting back to PDL about the 1662 B.o.C.P.

 

We have a Queen not a king; therefore, it is the Queen's writ. The Duke of Cornwall (Prince Charles) has not graciously consented to his mother exercising her powers in Cornwall. Indeed, the UK is a constitutional monarchy and neither the Queen nor the Duke of Cornwall exercise any writ over the county of Cornwall, any more than they do throughout the rest of the UK. Sovereignty is vested in the UK Parliament.

I ought to have been clearer here, admittedly. You are confusing the Duchy of Cornwall with the county of Cornwall. The two are different entities. The Duchy of Cornwall's properties, assets, interests, etc. are not confined within the boundaries of Cornwall.

You have not established your claim the Duke of Cornwall must grant his consent to the UK Parliament before it passes legislation that would effect Cornwall. If UK laws effect the entire UK they will effect Cornwall. If the UK Parliament passes laws for England they will effect Cornwall. If you are not saying it is the Duke of Cornwall who grants his consent then who on behalf of the duchy do you claim does? Providing a list of statutes you claim the Duke/Duchy of Cornwall had to consent to is not the same as providing evidence that their consent is necessary.

You are the one causing all the distraction by making these absurd claims about the UK.

 

In strictly constitutional terms, as a matter of law the sovereign power in the United Kingdom is the Queen-in-Parliament, with the Cabinet functioning as the executive committee of the Queen’s Privy Council. In practice, of course, the government is an elected dictatorship of the Prime Minister as the leader of the majority in the Commons and chief executive. What the law says and how it actually operates are divergent in this case.

 

The Queen in Parliament, also known as Her Majesty's High Court of Parliament, is the same as what I wrote in post #31. Sovereignty in the United Kingdom is vested in the UK legislature, by whichever name one chooses to refer to it.

 

I only mentioned King's writ as that's what the charter says. A charter between the Duchy of Cornwall and the Queendom of England.

And this is even more true of the Cornwall situation as we shall see.

Ahh it's all coming clear to me why you make such a fuss of land outside Cornwall and other issues. You have been reading duchyofcornwall.org and it probably shows the map of the Duchy as dots of red in places like London. This is probably the same map Stephen Fry showed on "QI" and he doesn't always get things right, such as the number of moons the Earth has.
The boundary of the Kingdom/Earldom/Duchy of Cornwall has in fact been settled since the time of Athelstan as the East bank of the Tamar.
You have read on Charles's website that the D.o.C. is a well run private estate. Oh how true Invictus's words are "What the law says and how it actually operates are divergent in this case." and my words "If you are a fan of Cornish nationalism, you are probably not a fan of Prince Charles."
If the Duchy is just a private estate how come he didn't have to pay tax on it? (Correct answer, it's a different country). He has recently volunteered to pay tax on it probably to appease people who didn't fully understand the situation. Perhaps you were among them PDL. Charles is definitely not a boat rocker on the issue.

Now if you don't think Cornwall is a separate country you have to answer sovereignty questions like.
The fee simple question. The fact it can call it's own Parliament if it wants to. Legal cases confirming Cornwall's independence. Intestate and escheat issues, and why Cornishmen were double taxed in England till the 1850's as they were foreigners like Frenchmen and yep even Americans.

Now I'll admit Cornwall is not effectively an independent country, but if everyone just did as the law states it would be.

Now this "Cornish" issue is very sensitive, just try doing an OIA (official information act) about it. One person did and getting nowhere took his OIA case to court. I wonder why the Queen's personal lawyer was in the court for a mere OIA case.

 

I am completely done with your ignorance. You demonstrate you know nothing.

I have repeatedly asked you for evidence and you continue to avoid that request. There is almost certainly a good reason for that: you can adduce none because there is none.

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