Scottish Knight, I really appreciate your response. Glad you are reading my posts. No worries about the time factor. We all get busy. I agree that Stalwart's example does present something that can be seen as problematic. That's why, in the first line of my response to Stalwart, I said: I do approach this issue cautiously for reasons explained in an earlier post. I believe the Blessed Virgin Mary is alive with Christ. I realize this is an assumption; but I think it is a safe one. However, I can't say that I trust that all who are called Saints are actually with Christ. Not sure how we can know that with certainty. The Biblical record does reveal some with certainty---such as Elijah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac. So, it's unlikely that I would call upon multiple Saints. In considering the Communion of the Saints and the belief that those who have departed from this life are alive in Christ, and we are all part of the Mystical Body of Christ---asking the Saints for prayer doesn't seem to be any different than asking for prayer from Christians this side of Heaven. I don't see the Saints in the role of mediators, but part of the Body of Christ--yet in a way we have not yet attained. Is this what you are saying? Stalwart, please pray for me = sharing with him and together coming before God. Blessed Virgin Mary, please pray for me = going through her rather than sharing with her and together coming before God. How does this make sense, and how did you arrive at this conclusion?
Stalwart, That doesn't work if you ask even one person to pray for you. You still have Stalwart > Anna > God. The only way to maintain going directly to God is to never ask for anyone's prayers and hope that no one decides to pray for you.
Stalwart, This is a rather surprising comment. So, you don't ever want anyone to pray for you, unless you ask them?
I suppose you are right, Adam. The Book of Common Prayer contains Collects: Traditional for Holy Days, in which the Saints are named.
Correct, but the way back is always God > Stalwart. In other words, you don't become an intercessor, or a mediator, for that grace. You become simply another, separate entity, praying to God. The grace from God descends directly on his target, no intercessors involved. Do you see what I mean? No, that's not what I meant to say. What I meant to say was that if I ask you to pray for me, embedded in that request is that my request be followed literally, to God. You can't then pray to other entities, that they pray to God. There is a built-in limitation. In other words, if there's one thing my request wouldn't say, it is: "pray to whomever you want, for me". Embedded within that request is: "pray to God". In this way, we inherently prevent the "telephone prayer".
Yes, and I never said I believed it to be any other way: If you asked me to pray for you, I wouldn't appeal to a Saint on your behalf. I think asking for the prayers of the departed Saints is entirely personal, and I haven't formed a fixed opinion on the issue, as I have said numerous times. I understand, but asking me to pray for you does depart from you going to God directly as your only means of prayer.
When you ask someone to pray for you it is always You -> them -> Christ and when the answer comes it's Christ -> you and when our prayers are answered we always Praise God and thank our friends for their prayers. When you ask a Saint to pray for you it is always You -> them -> Christ and when the answer comes it's Christ -> you and when our prayers are answered we always Praise God and thank our friends for their prayers.
I certainly hope I'm right. We have Major Feasts in the BCP that are to be "regularly observed throughout the year" (BCP pp. 16-17). The ones in bold on the calendar are the ones that must be observed. Many of these are Saints' days, including the upcoming Feast of St. Matthew on Sept. 21! Speaking of Feasts, I hope everybody has a wonderful Holy Cross Day tomorrow. Don't forget to read the Eve of Holy Cross readings for Evening Prayer tonight (BCP p. 999)
no. We were commenting on a particular example (the prayer to st anne) and I responded about the differences between that prayer of a "telephone prayer" and your examples. I do realise it's possible to pray to a saint without viewing it as a mediatoral role
I doubt the church was ever totally right lol. There were warnings in the writings of Paul from the very begining. I read a quote a long time ago which says thank God the church hasn't reached maturity yet! It has new people constantly being added so it's always staying young.
O.K. Thanks for clarifying. I really don't think our views are all that far apart, except I'm more inclined to believe there is an awareness of those in heaven in regards to us still here "working out our salvation in fear and trembling," as St. Paul said; but I could be wrong and often am. Even those of us here are sometimes given an awareness beyond the five senses. I can't imagine those with Christ would have less. That's an assumption, of course. Interesting discussion.
Still, we do know that the Saints are praying--about something anyway: Revelation 5:8 (ESV): 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders (A)fell down before the Lamb, (B)each holding a harp, and (C)golden bowls full of incense, (D)which are the prayers of the saints. Revelation 8:3-4 (ESV): 3 And another angel came and stood (A)at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with (B)the prayers of all the saints on (C)the golden altar before the throne, 4 and (D)the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. And they have awareness: Revelation 6:10 (ESV): 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, (A)holy and true, (B)how long (C)before you will judge and (D)avenge our blood on (E)those who dwell on the earth?”
I think any awareness is, as you say, purely speculative. And since God hasn't revealed it, then I am sure it must not be that important for us to know. I am optimistic this discussion will be good and we can get out of the circular repetitions lol so I'm carrying on Ok so the bible verses - first the verse in deuteronomy: looked up necromancer in the strong's hebrew concordance and it has this to say: dârash daw-rash' A primitive root; properly to tread or frequent; usually to follow (for pursuit or search); by implication to seek or ask; specifically to worship: - ask, X at all, care for, X diligently, inquire, make inquisition, [necro-] mancer, question, require, search, seek [for, out], X surely. L So I think the idea is trying to contact the dead, the dead being the physically dead. We can also say that ti's an attempt to communicate with the dead through outside means. Ie not through God.. Those in favour of saintly prayers will say they are going through God, by the Holy Spirit (discounting the numerous examples of prayers goign the other way round). Howver bottom line is God hasn't revealed to pray for the saints in heaven. He has shown no way to talk to them and it is just speculation.The verse in James "the prayers of a righteous man availeth much" I always interpreted that the more righteous we are the more our prayers will conform to God's will. Besides Chrst has made us righteous and we can go through Him anyway these are some of my rshed thoughts on the passages, would love to go into more depth here once ypu've shared your thoughts.
Only God is omnipotent, omnipreasens. As far as I see Saints arent omnipotents, omniprasens, so how could they hear your prayers? I can't find biblical example that Saints in the heaven would see what is going on here in the earth. And what if more people pray to a Saint in one time???? Only God is omnipotent to listen X million prayer.
Yes, awareness is speculative to a certain extent, though we are given an indication of awareness and prayers of the Saints in the passages in Revelation noted previously. Also, as noted in an earlier post, Samuel who was actually conjured from the dead, was very aware of Saul's circumstances and even foretold his future, and this occurred prior to the Passion of Christ, His resurrection, and His proclamation to the "spirits in prison." So, awareness of the departed is not entirely speculative. I think it all comes down to whether we believe the departed Saints are alive in Christ or dead in Christ--and there are Christians who claim the departed faithful are dead in Christ, until the resurrection. If they are dead and are not with Christ, then asking the Saints for prayer would indeed lead us down the wrong road. As we all know, Holy Scripture tells us that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living: Matthew 22:31-32: 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Then there is the transfiguration of Christ, witnessed by Peter, James, and John his brother who saw Moses and Elijah who were very much alive. (Matthew 17:2-4; Mark 9:3-5; Luke 9:29-31) Previously, I posted concerns very similar to yours and also included a definition of necromancy-though I would say your definition is better: I can see that as one logical conclusion. However, if we are all part of the One Mystical Body of Christ and the departed Saints are alive in Christ, asking the saints to pray for us seems no different than asking those this side of Heaven to pray for us. Perhaps no instructions were given, because no instructions are needed. Requests for prayer throughout the Body of Christ would be the same. I agree that only Christ makes us righteous, and I agree that the more righteous we are, the more our prayers will conform to God's will---all very good points. However, those two truths do not negate the fact that the Lord hears the prayers of the righteous over those who do evil, as noted in 1 Peter 3: 12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.” Certainly, a Christian this side of heaven can do evil and be in need of repentance. It would be difficult to make a case for the Saints in Heaven doing evil. So, it is possible that their prayers are more effectual through their righteousness made possible only through Christ; and they are, after all, in His presence. Through Holy Scripture we are called to pray for one another. Would the Saints with Christ fall into disobedience and cease praying for others? I can't imagine that being the case; and Revelation does reveal the fact that the Saints do pray. Did you get a chance to read Fr. Jonathan's article Either the Saints Are Alive or Jesus is Dead ? I'm really enjoying our discussion, and look forward to your comments.
Saints didn't lose their ability to hear just because they went to Heaven and omnipotent has nothing to do with it. For Biblical evidence lets turn to Revelations where the Saints take the prayers to God: And when he took the scroll, the four living beings and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they held gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of God's people. Rev 5:8 NLT and The smoke of the incense, mixed with the prayers of God's holy people, ascended up to God from the altar where the angel had poured them out. Rev 8:4 NLT and we just don't go by the Bible as the sola scripturaist do we have the Church Fathers and Tradition to inform us of how Christians thought about this in the early days
I'd like to understand your point of wiev, but as for me Rev 5:8 doesn't encourage me to pray Saints. Moreover according to your statement, only the 24 elder prayer would be correrct. But what are their name? Secondly in the gospel, and in the NT letters dont tell about praying to Saints. As for me the church tradition could be standard only things which arent so important, but the prayer is one of the most important thing