Russia-Ukraine situation

Discussion in 'Anglican and Christian News' started by ralph, Feb 23, 2022.

  1. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Comments from a Jewish visitor speaking about his 2018 trip to the Ukraine, stating how many Nazi and subtly anti-Semitic cultural affinities he had seen in Ukrainian museums, among the people, social circles and other cultural institutions. Why isn’t the CNN reporting on things like this?

    https://twitter.com/redarrow_posts/status/1500933401075130368?s=21
     
  2. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Probably because it thinks it would merely complicate the perceptions of the general public it tries to 'inform'.
    We should not lose sight of the fact that it was aggressive and violent invasion by Russia upon an independent sovereign nation that is the issue here, not a discussion of the individual ideologies of some of the less attractive factions operating within Ukraine.

    It is Ukraine that is being oppressed which puts Ukraine in the position of defending itself against an aggressor. This will inevitably require it to do things which, under normal circumstances, would be immoral from a Christian point of view. For the oppressed their resistance is not however optional, it is essential for survival. For the oppressed , their aggression is not to conquer or subdue others under their feet, but to stand and walk equally in their quest to retain freedom from oppression. For the oppressed, even though terrible evils may come from among them, those evils will always fall short of that which spews from the aggressors whose desire is to dominate and enslave, For the oppressed are not the ones with a calculated desire to dominate, but their objective is merely to right the wrongs that threaten their very existence.
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  3. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    One of the lessons of history, and I loath to remind us, is that appeasement is not helpful, especially when it is wrapped in a blanket that blinds us to true justice.

    There are some reports suggesting that Patriach Kirill has approved the invasion on the grounds of LGBTQIT issues in Ukraine, combined with the christian responsibility to end neo-nazi factio s there.

    Martin Luther King urged us to be hard headed and tender hearted. We could do with some of that right now.

    And in Ukraine, let tgere be peace.
     
  4. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Right, which is because CNN sees its role as telling people what to believe, rather than informing them of all available facts and leaving the conclusions up to them. BBC is the same way.

    We are surrounded by propaganda agencies, which masquarade as "news" agencies. They only share those facts which lead to the conclusion they already want you to believe.


    Here is some more grist for the mill:
    Wikileaks have revealed that NATO has repeatedly violated its treaties and promises to Russia since the 1990s, thereby at least tacitly contributing to this conflict.

    “Promises broken. In exchange for German reunification the leaders of the west agreed not to expand NATO closer to Russian borders. Now we have a war in Europe because the US Government doesn’t honor agreements and Western leaders don’t have the spine to say no to US Empire.”
    https://twitter.com/kimdotcom/status/1501218402878521344?s=21
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  5. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Pretty much already been there and said as much. :clap:
    Here and Here
     
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  6. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Doubtless I don't know as much about foreign affairs as I do the Bible. But I do know that there are always two (or more) sides to every story. Each side usually thinks they are in the right, and each side lacks some information and/or perspective that, if they knew it, would be helpful to resolving the situation. When the various sides cannot reconcile differences, aggravation builds and they may come to blows. This is unfortunate in lesser circumstances, but in the present circumstance it is fraught with deadly danger. The last thing we want is to have either Russia or the US bombed or otherwise attacked. The devastation could be beyond horrific.

    This is why it alarms me to see people vilifying the other side and its leader. When enough people get whipped up, angry, and hating the opposition, the consensus can be seen as a mandate to commence military hostilities in earnest. Christians are not called to be haters or bearers of anger. Christians are called to be salt and light, to remain loving and level-headed. Our godly influence and prayers might or might not be enough to avert the tragedy of widespread war, but with God's help I hope we will do our best. :pray2:
     
  7. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Would that somehow be worse that having Ukraine bombed and otherwise attacked? I think not. I imagine the Ukrainians think not as well.

    I have not gone about villifying Putin, though I do not agree whith his decision to invade Ukraine. I suspect that the Ukraine will be a long hard struggle if Putin is determined to continue.

    The offer of humanitarian corridors into Russia, if not cynical, was clearly poorly thought through. Ukrainians could be forgiven for not seeing Putin as a generous benefactor acting in their best interests as he bombs their home and homeland.
     
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  8. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Even Jesus Christ himself, being a good judge of character, called Herod "That Fox" and the Pharisees "Whitewashed tombs full of dead bones and all manner of filth".

    Putin, (whatever may be seen as NATO provocation), is the agressor here, Not the individual citizens of the cities of Ukraine. He is clearly a tyrant, even now to any of his OWN people who dare to disagree with him, his supporters and his lies. If the cap fits, and it definitely does, we should not be squeamish over making him wear it and calling him out for being the tyrant he actually is. Truth is truth and we should not, as individuals or nations, be afraid to declare it openly. let's not see any attempts to justify Putin's warmongering and empire building aggression by labelling as LGBTQ Nazis, the forces trying to defend Ukraine from unprovoked attack masterminded by a psychopathic tyrant, novichock murderer and intimate aquaintance of ex-President Trump.
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    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  9. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    You're replying to my comment that Christians are not called to be haters or bearers of anger, so I'll note that Jesus did not hate Herod or get furious with him. I said nothing against Christians doing name-calling. Jesus did it, and so do we.

    Putin is an evil man, I agree. I don't like the low-down skunk (see? name calling! :D ). Zelensky is a very naughty boy as well. But I am not hating either of them. If we fall into hatred, we fall into a trap set by Satan and no good can come of it. Let's pray for those men to have a genuine conversion to Christ if at all possible.

    No point in dragging your favorite whipping boy, Trump, into this. Zelensky was in office before Trump was sworn in, and Trump worked to maintain friendly relations and further US interests in dealing with Zelensky just as Trump did with any other nation's leader. The man was doing the job he was elected for, so let's not pretend for one second that they were on "intimate" terms in any way.
     
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  10. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that is not true.
    • Trump Inauration : 20 Jnauary 2017
    • Zelleskyy Assumed Office: 20 May 2019
    I would seem that Trump was in office fully 2 years and 4 months before Zellenskyy became president.

    In September 2019, it was reported that U.S. President Donald Trump had allegedly blocked payment of a congressionally mandated $400 million military aid package to Ukraine to pressure Zelenskyy during a July phone call between the two presidents to investigate alleged wrongdoing by Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden, who took a board seat on Ukrainian natural gas company Burisma Holdings. This report was the catalyst for the Trump–Ukraine scandal and the impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump. Zelenskyy has denied that he was pressured by Trump and declared that "he does not want to interfere in a foreign election."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Zelenskyy#Foreign_relations

    I also found this article interesting.


    I am not sure if the Washington Post is left or right, donkey or elephant, howevr I gather it has some level of respect.
     
  11. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree. We are allowed to be angry but not to sin. In Putin's case though he gives us all reason to be angry again at every new sunrise, :hmm:
    I was really only referring to the fact that when Trump met Putin he slipped his aides and had an unprogrammed extended private discussion with Putin, at which we still have no idea what might have been discussed. In view of the fact that we now know American elections had been interfered with by the Russians, (perhaps to get their man in, he has many connections in Russia), Putins future plans for Ukraine could also have been discussed and agreed, for all that we can know about what might have been said in an 'intimate' secretive meeting. In view of the fact that photos might exist of a certain party in a certain hotel in Russia involving Mr Trump, there is I think, a certain relevance in 'dragging him into' this. Putin fully expected Trump to still be in office when he decided to invade Ukraine. I don't think he was expecting quite the kick back he's getting now Trump's an ex-President.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2022
  12. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Doggone, my mistake! Somehow I was thinking Zelensky was in since 2015.
     
  13. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    That is sheer, biased speculation.
     
  14. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Speculation definitely, inevitably because who can definitely know, besides Putin or Trump themselves, what was said secretively in a private meeting.
    Biased is more difficult to justify. Secretive meetings are always a cause of speculation concerning what may have been said or even agreed, but a natural curiosity concerning what goes on 'behind closed doors', does not necessarily designate bias, but why did Trump and Putin want privacy to say whatever was said and discuss whatever they discussed and maybe make deals on whatever they may have made deals about?
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  15. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    The private meeting happened July 7, 2017. It happened in the context of the G 20, and lasted about 90 minutes, and a dinner in view of others, and out of earshot, with a single Kremlim supplied interpreter. The G 20 discussed a range of items that year, http://www.g20.utoronto.ca/2017/2017-G20-leaders-declaration.pdf. It is possible that the Trump/Putin discussions were about these things, on perhaps about other things. It was of course about 7 weeks after Zellenskyy had been swept into office with a 73% majority, so it is possible that their heart to heart may have touched on that. Ultimately three people know, and it seems nobody is talking. What is clear is that it was a private conversation, and nothing binding can come of it.

    June 1, 2017
    Withdrawal from Paris climate accord. President Trump announces that the United States will withdraw from the 2015 Paris climate accord, another agreement negotiated by Obama.​

    July 28, 2017
    Chief of Staff Kelly named. President Trump announces that he has replaced Reince Priebus as his chief of staff with John F. Kelly, former general and secretary of Homeland Security.​

    These two events of significance sit either side of the private discussion. It is possible that either of these could have been discussed. Reince Priebus has been tagged as a possible source of leaks to the FBI around Russian Spies and access to Trump. Of course if they were discussing rumours of Russian Spy involvement, one realises that they would not have wanted to discuss that privately.

    It clearly has to be speculation, as it was a private conversation and can only be regarded as a discussion with no authority.
     
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  16. Br. Thomas

    Br. Thomas Active Member

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    I sit in wonder at all of the speculation of what is transpiring amongst the activities in Ukraine, Washington DC, Moscow and throughout the world. I see statements of Trump sneaking away from his aides and meeting with Putin. No one has mentioned the open-mic caught when Putin and Obama were together not too many years ago. I do remember Obama saying he would have freer reign, once he was re-elected. Anyone else remember that? Of course, we still hear that recent occurrences are the fault of the OrangeMan. Talk about hatred??? It presents us all with a worrisome future and we can only put our trust in God and hope that enough people of goodwill are working on our behalf in the world of politics and world affairs.
     
  17. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Yes we have now, you just did. :laugh:
     
  18. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    It shocks me that no one is mentioning the far more deadly and longer lasting conflict in Ethiopia
     
  19. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Good point. No one here, and certainly not in the MSM. There can be conflicts and genocides occurring in many countries, but only hyper-attention to the Russia-Ukraine fight serves the purpose of the puppet-masters.
     
  20. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Part of it may be fatigue. It seems Ethiopia is always at war and international efforts to help constantly fail. It is also different in that it is a civil war, one part of Ethiopia fighting another part. It also doesn't involve major world powers and its outcome will have less effect on the world. As a European the war in the Ukraine feels too close to home compared to the war in Ethiopia. It seems to me Ethiopia is one of those areas of the world, like the Middle East, for which a solution will not be found.

    This is not the same as saying the war in Ethiopia does not matter. It does. It matters a great deal to the children, women and men who have been killed, disabled, made homeless, become displaced, traumatised (mentally and physically), who have lost their possessions and are almost certainly not getting enough food, are short of medicines, have no proper shelter and at risk from malnutrition and other disease. We should think about them, pray for them and donate to humanitarian agencies working there.
     
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