I have just learned that Steven Wedgeworth converted to Anglicanism

One of the most prominent young conservative theologians in the US, I've been edified by many of his articles... Have you seen this? amazing

 

I am elated that the ACNA is taking any theologically sound clergy.

 

Certainly on Twitter.com, the homeland of the true faith, we're seeing a growing unity between magisterial presbyterians and reformational anglicans.


Presbyterian Rite Anglicanism shall soon rule supreme!

 

Good. Now he just needs to drop 5 point Calvinism

 

So, they realize conformity isn't the debbil

 

Why would he need to do that?

 

the articles of religion seem to teach against perseverance of the saints, limited atonement, total depravity (as Calvin understood it), and irresistible grace


And on “unconditional election,” the divines like John Davenant who attended the synod of Dort have taught hypothetical universalism, so there goes that petal of the tulip…

 

IX. Of original Birth or Sin.
Original Sin standeth not in the Following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk) but it is the Fault, and Corruption, of the Nature of every man that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam, whereby man is very far gone from original Righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil, so that the Flesh lusteth always contrary to the Spirit; and therefore in every Person born into this world, it deserveth GOD‘s Wrath, and Damnation. And this infection of nature doth remain, yea, in them that are regenerated; whereby the Lust of the Flesh, called in Greek, phronema sarkos, which some do expound the wisdom, some sensuality, some the affection, some the desire of the Flesh, is not subject to the Law of God. And altho’ there is no Condemnation for them that believe and are Baptized, yet the Apostle doth confess, that Concupiscence and Lust hath of itself the nature of Sin.

X.Of Free-Will.
The Condition of man after the Fall of Adam is such, That he cannot turn & prepare himself by his own natural strength & good works, to Faith and Calling upon God: Wherefore we have no Power to do Good Works pleasant and acceptable to God, without the Grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good Will, and working with us when we have that good Will.


XVII. Of Predestination and Election.
Predestination to Life, is the everlasting purpose of GOD, whereby (before the Foundations of the world were laid) He hath constantly Decreed by His Counsel, secret to us, to deliver from Curse and Damnation, those whom He hath chosen in Christ out of Mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting Salvation, as vessels made to Honour. Wherefore they which be endued with so excellent a Benefit of God, be called according to God’s purpose by His Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the Calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by Adoption: they be made like the Image of His only begotten Son JESUS CHRIST: they walk religiously in Good Works, and at length by GOD‘s Mercy they attain to everlasting Felicity. As the godly Consideration of predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable Comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the Flesh, and their earthly Members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish & confirm their Faith of eternal Salvation, to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth frequently kindle their Love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God’s Predestination, is a most dangerous down-fall, whereby the devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of unclean Living, no less perilous than Desperation. Furthermore, we must receive God’s Promises in such wise as they be generally set forth to us in Holy Scripture: and in our Doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the word of God.

Underline emphasis mine, but it would seem harder to argue against these doctrines than for them- while article XVII also seems to caution against making Election and Perseverance the emphasis.

 

That’s just the traditional statement of original sin… right? And the prominence of natural law in the Anglican tradition seems to mean that some natural faculties (ie. reason) can indeed grasp the truth… So yes it doesn’t seem that we believe in total depravity, but we certainly believe in original sin

“the Grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good Will, and working with us when we have that good Will.”

As you quote it yourself, this seems teach prevenient grace, which is an endorsement of free will (once enlightened with the said grace)

Just standard definitions of predestination in Augustine, Prosper of Aquitaine, Albert the Great, Aquinas, Scotus… you find it in those exact words in the Augsburg confession, in contrast with the Reformed confessions teaching double predestination

So overall seems to be a reputation of the central Reformed loci, in favor of the traditional Christian doctrines on these questions

 

Since the 5 points of Dordrecht were the subject here, I will quote from the Canons:

Article 1: The Effect of the Fall on Human Nature
Man was originally created in the image of God and was furnished in his mind with a true and salutary knowledge of his Creator and things spiritual, in his will and heart with righteousness, and in all his emotions with purity; indeed, the whole man was holy. However, rebelling against God at the devil’s instigation and by his own free will, he deprived himself of these outstanding gifts. Rather, in their place he brought upon himself blindness, terrible darkness, futility, and distortion of judgment in his mind; perversity, defiance, and hardness in his heart and will; and finally impurity in all his emotions.

Article 2: The Spread of Corruption
Man brought forth children of the same nature as himself after the fall. That is to say, being corrupt he brought forth corrupt children. The corruption spread, by God’s just judgment, from Adam to all his descendants—except for Christ alone—not by way of imitation (as in former times the Pelagians would have it) but by way of the propagation of his perverted nature.

Article 3: Total Inability
Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

Article 11: The Holy Spirit’s Work in Conversion
Moreover, when God carries out this good pleasure in his chosen ones, or works true conversion in them, he not only sees to it that the gospel is proclaimed to them outwardly, and enlightens their minds powerfully by the Holy Spirit so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God, but, by the effective operation of the same regenerating Spirit, he also penetrates into the inmost being of man, opens the closed heart, softens the hard heart, and circumcises the heart that is uncircumcised. He infuses new qualities into the will, making the dead will alive, the evil one good, the unwilling one willing, and the stubborn one compliant; he activates and strengthens the will so that, like a good tree, it may be enabled to produce the fruits of good deeds.

Article 16: Regeneration’s Effect
However, just as by the fall man did not cease to be man, endowed with intellect and will, and just as sin, which has spread through the whole human race, did not abolish the nature of the human race but distorted and spiritually killed it, so also this divine grace of regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms, and—in a manner at once pleasing and powerful—bends it back. As a result, a ready and sincere obedience of the Spirit now begins to prevail where before the rebellion and resistance of the flesh were completely dominant. It is in this that the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consists. Thus, if the marvelous Maker of every good thing were not dealing with us, man would have no hope of getting up from his fall by his free choice, by which he plunged himself into ruin when still standing upright.

 

Thank you for that… I was not talking about the canons of Dort, so someone who is more educated can comment on that more… I was responding to the popular understandings of calvinism, in the acronym TULIP

Do we believe total deprevity (incapacity of nonbelievers to reach truth)?… no
Do we believe unconditional election?… see John Davenant, no
Do we believe limited atonement? Nope
Do we believe irresistible grace? See Article 9, nope
Do we believe perseverance of the Saints? Nope, See articles 9, 10

In addition to the Articles, all these points are seconded in the Book of Common Prayer
-the Prayer of Humble Access
-prayer of Oblation
-rite of confession and Absolution

All these speak of our capacity of being fallen (after being “saved”), our need to take steps and actions which after enablement by God contribute to our salvation

 

Hey, I don't mean to be rude or anything, but you need to re-read the 39 articles and the homilies on justification. You so uphold or are suppose to uphold those fundamental truths, the Synod of Dordt was convened to fight the remenstrants (semi-arminians), and an Anglican bishop was there (view the bishop canopy at the top of the assembly in any of the paintings).

The Canon of Dort explains, extrapolates, and defends each of the points and then follows it with questions and misconceptions being proffered against the main points.

We are reformed and have elements of each of these, including corporate confession and absolution(sometimes called assurance of pardon). The Anglican if historical to the summation point of the reformation is hand-in-hand with the continental in the points.

Your articles are in full adherence to the continental reformed faith, Cranmer's consultation with men like Bucer when forming the BCP can vouch for this.

 

Surely, I agree, it just doesn't seem to be what (later) came to be known as Reformed theology

Was Martin Bucer a 5-point calvinist? I have not seen that... While I'm far from an expert on his thought, what I did read from him was very different from what later came to be called Reformed theology

I have been quoting the chapter and verse from our formularies


Anyway I do not want to get anyone's heckles up so won't say any more about this here
Besides, this thread isn't about that, so let's get back to Steven Wedgeworth... How many of you know of his work?

 

Casually speaking, the colloquial '5 Points' are directly lifted from the Canons. https://threeforms.org/canons-of-dort/

- That is not the definition of Total Depravity, but Ephesians 2 is quite clear of our state prior to regeneration.
- Davenant might not agree, but neither is he the sum of English doctrine.
- The extent of the atonement is ultimately and simply a logical end of the other points, and an acknowledgement that God will not fail in his purpose. To quote Dordt: "This death of God’s Son is the only and entirely complete sacrifice and satisfaction for sins; it is of infinite value and worth, more than sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world."
- Did you mean Article 10?
- Per article 9, Perserverance of the Saints is not the same as Sinless Perfection.

"We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord, whose property is always to have mercy: Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body, and our souls washed through his most precious blood, and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen."

This prayer does not seem to lean either way, except that God is our Saviour and not our own works.

"ALMIGHTY God, our heavenly Father, who of thy tender mercy didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the Cross for our redemption; who made there (by his one oblation of himself once offered) a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world;"

Given this is a direct quote from 1 John, I guarantee you noone at Dordrecht intentionally overlooked this nor failed to spill ink concerning.

As far as the prayers in the daily office, these would not be counter either.

- The inability of man to earn his salvation is a much different thing than the commands for believers falling into sin to repent as enabled by the Spirit, which presumes a previous justification. Does one lose their status as justified before God? Can one earn this? If this repentance is enabled by God, than it is is his provision that turns us back to Him, and not we ourselves, and demonstrates his sovereign care.


I would concede that on the topics of election et al, the Formularies lean to the Lutheran side, but neither is the Genevan side condemned, nor should it be confused for the overly simplistic views pushed by many modern YRR Presbyterian/Baptists. I would highly suggest a more full reading of Dordrecht prior to tossing it all as un-Anglican.

 

If we really want to go down these rabbit holes, Bucer predated the Synod of Dort by nearly 70 years. In that span, both the Reformed and Lutheran positions experienced evolution.

Arminius and the Remonstrants considered themselves within the bounds of Reformed theology. They believed they were positing some necessary corrections to the development of Reformed theology (which the Lutherans had fought 30 years prior with the Formula of Concord and the defeat of the 'crypto-Calvinists'). They had a valid point!

 

One reason I have become convinced of the Formularies is that I see no reason to form a hard boundary in the same vein of thought (eg, Pauline/Augustinian) over lesser differences of the logical ends. That does go both ways, and is why I haven't, say, become Presbyterian or Lutheran, depending on the issue at hand.

 

Better be careful, you're sounding awfully Methodist right now

 

What era of Methodism is represented here?

 

I think we can say that since the Anglican formularies predate the emergence of calvinism and reformed theology (as well as distinctive lutheran views), we represent a position within which others with narrower beliefs can find shelter

 

That picture is over 3 years old and I've looked at it several times and just now realized there is a side altar behind me in front of the statuary. It was a place we leased from the Romans for a time. Or at least a purported order of Roman nuns. Orders of nuns often bend the canons a bit in what they do and allow to happen at their institutions.