Universalism

I have read some universalist work. They don't typically endorse annihilationism but that redemption can take place past death.

 

Ah. Very strange. The Athanasian Creed clearly says no such thing (aeternam peribit = eternal death). I think the Gospels and the Book of Revelation are also quite clear on the subject. Then there's Daniel 12:2, one of the very few OT passages to broach the subject at all:

 

I just got a big book on it, because I hope it is true but don't think it is but still I hope, so maybe next month I can talk more about it.

 

As for the books I have read on it Dare We Hope is better than Hart's book.

 

In that case I look forward to reading the book report. It's not an area I've given that much thought to, it's so far off the trodden path.

 

No, annihilationism is not universalism.

I can't provide the exact references but using the search bar with "universalist" or "universalism" should lead you most of the threads on the topic.

 

I have in good faith searched the other threads mentioning universalism but have been unable to find any argument that the first line of the Athanasian Creed has been mistranslated from the Latin. Also, having some familiarity with Latin myself, I also happen to know that it has not, in fact, been mistranslated. It says exactly what it appears to say. That is why it was controversial when the 18th cent. Enlightenment swept through Britain and America, and why it was not included in an American Book of Common Prayer until 1979, and then only as a ‘Historical Document’.

In the Monastic Divine Office, the Athanasian Creed is appointed to be said or sung after the last Psalm of the Hour of Prime for Trinity Sunday. It also is appointed to be read in place of the Apostles’ Creed on several Sundays throughout the year according to the 1662 Prayer Book.

 

Hi LL,

I will look forward to going through the different threads on this topic. However, I do note from the little bit that I have seen so far that most folks tend to take an all or nothing approach to this subject. I.e., the door to heaven is always open forever and ever, or the door is closed to the unsaved at death forever and ever. An intermediate position might allow for post-mortem redemption, etc. up until the time of the Final Judgment when Death and Hades, etc. are cast into the Lake of Fire in Revelations 20 (which to most appears to be a terminal image = the final destination forever and ever for the unsaved). Such an approach can also be harmonized, IMO, with the language of the Athanasian creed as well.

Cordially,
Acolyte

 

PS--I should also mention that the foregoing can also be harmonized (once again IMO) with the eschatological theory or proposal (couched in the form of a dream/vision) by C. S. Lewis in "The Great Divorce".

PPS--Also, I do not discount the possibility that the Lake of Fire imagery may involve eventual annihilation. At least, I don't feel like it can be disproved. I'll have to stop at this point lest I be accused of positing an unmanageable and distasteful potpourri of discordant elements.

 

I'll look but the posts may have been deleted because tempers flared on the topic.

 

I understand. No worries.

 

I will try give to you my views on the Athanasian Creed as soon as I am able to get the free time to do so.

 

Jesus draws all people toward Himself, but not all respond favorably. A magnet draws all steel, but not all steel will be affected by the magnet's attraction.

I respectfully disagree, and so does the Greek scholar, Zodhiates. The word used is not aion (#165 in the concordance), but aionos (#166). The latter generally means 'eternal.' It is the same Greek word used in referring to the believers' eternal life; if you postulate that the word indicates merely 'an age that will end,' then our eternal life with God may be equally postulated to have an end! Aionos is also the word used in Hebrews 9:14 to speak of the Holy Spirit, "the eternal Spirit;" does the Holy Spirit cease to exist at the end of an age?

 

Indeed, if universalism were true, then Peter, Paul, Stephen, and countless missionaries throughout the centuries risked and gave their lives needlessly.

 

I think this is right on point. To be honest I’m not sure why the topic keeps coming up. Universalism is a falsifiable theory that is easily disconfirmed via multiple lines of evidence. In terms of viability as a theory it occupies roughly the same position as the Flat Earth. If people want to hold it as a pure faith position that’s fine, but it’s got nothing to do with the Bible or Christianity, and to pretend that it does is disingenuous at best.

 

I'm not familiar enough with Greek to spar with you on this and I have no idea who Zodhiates is. I guess it's all Greek to me, lol

Gerry Beauchemin's Hope Beyond Hell provides a discussion on Aion/Aionios that I found helpful and is not too " I'm the weeds". Here is a link to the book below and the discussion starts on page 21 with the chapter titled "The Pillars".

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

The rest of the book is a good layout of Christian Universalism from an evangelical perspective as well that's not too heavy, FYI.

 

I took a look at that. I suppose we should remind ourselves that Greek and Hebrew words each often covered multiple possible meanings, and it was up to the reader/hearer to understand which meaning fit the context of the statement. When reading the scriptures which use the word aion, a great many of them can be seen from the context that a long (but not never-ending) period is indicated, while sometimes the context seems to dictate that 'eternity' is an appropriate translation. Beauchemin doesn't allow for this possibility (if I read him correctly) and I think that is an indication of his personal bias (he is attempting to prove universalism, after all).

When reading the scriptures that use the word aionios, therefore, in all fairness it may be possible for the word to be used either way; therefore I have to admit that we are again obliged to examine the context. In that, I cannot (at this point in my perusal of those scriptures) claim a 'slam dunk' in favor of my position, but I think the major body of evidence suggests that the word usually (most often) indicates eternity. The reference to Romans might be one of the (relatively few) exceptions.

When aionios (an adjective) refers to God or to His characteristics, it seems evident that the meaning is 'eternal', 'everlasting,' or similar. When the word refers to things related to His bestowal of grace upon men (such as "eternal" life), the evidence again supports the translation that indicates 'forever and ever' or 'everlasting (for His gifts and calling are "without repentance" or irrevocable). I would venture to state further that when the word aionios is used twice in quick succession within the same statement, such as Jesus' words in Matthew 25:46, the presumption should rest in favor of interpreting the word both times in the same meaning; the exception would be if the context told us otherwise, such as if we could detect a "play on words" on Jesus' part (but I have a hard time accepting that Jesus would engage in a double entendre when broaching such a serious subject as a man's destiny either in bliss or in punishment).

As for the other words that Beauchemin suggests could have been used to indicate eternity, I am unpersuaded by that line of reasoning. The words he highlights are translated to indicate such things as incorruptibility and indestructibility; those concepts are tangentially related to that of eternity, but their meaning is different enough that we can reasonably assume they are not interchangeable in what was meant to be conveyed to us in the particular passage of scripture.

 

Mention has been made of the early church's understanding in regard to the punishment meted out to unbelievers. So I will paste a couple of quotes on the subject.

"Do not err, my brethren. (Comp. Jas_1:16) Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (1Co_6:9-10) And if those that corrupt mere human families are condemned to death, how much more shall those suffer everlasting punishment who endeavour to corrupt the Church of Christ, for which the Lord Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, endured the cross, and submitted to death! Whosoever, “being waxen fat,” (Deu_32:15) and “become gross,” sets at nought His doctrine, shall go into hell. In like manner, every one that has received from God the power of distinguishing, and yet follows an unskilful shepherd, and receives a false opinion for the truth, shall be punished. “What communion hath light with darkness? or Christ with Belial? Or what portion hath he that believeth with an infidel? or the temple of God with idols?” (2Co_6:14-16) And in like manner say I, what communion hath truth with falsehood? or righteousness with unrighteousness? or true doctrine with that which is false?" (Ignatius' epistle to the Ephesians, Ch. 16)

"The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations84 of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” (Eph_1:10) and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven” and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” (Php_2:10, Php_2:11) to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,” (Eph_6:12) and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10:1)

"And, again, if there were really no such thing as good and evil, but certain things were deemed righteous, and certain others unrighteous, in human opinion only, He never would have expressed Himself thus in His teaching: “The righteous shall shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father;” (Mat_13:43) but He shall send the unrighteous, and those who do not the works of righteousness, “into everlasting fire, where their worm shall not die, and the fire shall not be quenched.” (Mat_25:41; Mar_9:44) (ibid, 2:32:1)

I also came across this page filled with quotes, which anyone may peruse at their convenience.