A new Roman Catholic denomination has opened up in India

Absolutely! The Anglo-Saxon Church of England had substantial differences from the theology it would espouse after the Norman conquest. The Anglican argument is right on this point: the Church of England was always its own branch of the Catholic Church, and it demonstrably persevered in carrying patristic catholic Christianity, long after the Popes had overtaken it on the continent. The Norman conquest is when the Papal Roman Catholicism comes to take over England (although even then it was a partial conquest, as evidenced by more resistance to the papacy in England than practically anywhere else in Christendom).

 

The main reason the same thing didn’t happen in the East is because the Muslims wouldn’t allow it.

 

list the crusades against rival Catholic Churches

 

I think you may be attempting to stack the deck with the use of the words “rival Catholic”; all we’re talking about is the organized use of arms by Rome against other Christians (whether “heretical” or not…that shouldn’t make any difference whatsoever anyway), so I’m not sure why you’re challenging me on this. That Rome has many times declared Crusades against other Christians is common knowledge. In any case, here’s a list:

- 4th Crusade
- Albigensian Crusade
- Bogomils Crusades
- Bosnian Heretics Crusade
- Despensers Crusade (against a rival antipope)
- 1st Crusade against the Hussites
- 2nd Crusade against the Hussites
- 3rd Crusade against the Hussites
- 4th Crusade against the Hussites
- 5th Crusade against the Hussites
- Waldensian Crusade

For the sake of convenience I pulled the list from Wikipedia, but am familiar with these episodes from my undergrad days.

 

The 4th crusade was not an anti rival catholic church crusade. The Pope actually excommunicated the participants in the crusade and condemned it. It was for greed.
Do you actually know what the Albigensians and the Bogomils believed? I would say they were not even Christians. Not sure how you can try to put down a rival catholic church if they are not even Christian.
The Despenser Crusade trying to put down a rival Catholic Church or should it read more like a military expedition, within the Hundred Years War, where the two sides supported different people vying to be Pope of the same church. Not sure how that is a war to put down a rival catholic church when they were part of the same church but thought different people should head it and this was all tied into the Hundred Years War. At worst it was some form of civil conflict within the very same Catholic Church at best it was just an episode within the Hundred Years War.

The Bosnian Crusade is an odd an interesting episode. It was not to put down a rival Catholic Church but it was more of a Hungarian land grab, that got sanctioned by Pope as a crusade, because a fear was spreading that Albigensians leader was heading there and that they were turning to Bolgomilism, both non Christian sects. We are really reaching there. The only legitimate one I will give you is the war against the Hussites, and even then an agreement was reached that allowed them to exist.

 

Jesus said something that applies to the RC organization:
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Killing and persecuting Christians, for the 'sin' of disagreeing with and departing from wrong religious practices and bad teaching, showed the RCC to be a "corrupt tree" that brought forth evil fruit.

 

The point Invictus is making is that Christian orthodoxy was determined by force and executions. It’s as if the struggle against the Jehova’s Witnesses today were resolved by raiding their homes and executing every one. That’s not okay, yes? We are stuck with using persuasion, apologetics, by witness, formation and catechesis.

Today there is no physical barrier prohibiting separation. But there was one in the Middle Ages. Those who stepped out of line, yes their houses were raided, and everyone executed. That’s the reason for Roman unity in the Middle Ages. Not some sort of intrinsic invisible bond. Once they were forbidden from killing others, there appeared rival denominations. There never was an intrinsic invisible bond to begin with.

 

That is a bit different than saying that they used crusades to keep one Catholic Church around. That is in fact two different things. He might be making one point but myo riginal response was to your comment and he came a long and listed all these crusades as if they proved your point. They were not crusades to get rid of rival Catholic Churches but for the most part they were against non Christian or used as a political means in a larger political context for secular purposes.

 

Would you agree that they maintained their own definition of "catholic" through persecution? In other words if they didn't have military might, there would be several claimants on what is catholic.

And while I certainly don't defend the Cathar theology, the Hussites are 100% catholic. Yet the Pope declared five crusades against them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite_Wars
"They defeated five consecutive crusades proclaimed against them by the Pope (1420, 1421, 1422, 1427, 1431)"

 

Yeah, like I said, you're basically just stacking the deck to define the notion of a Roman Catholic crusade against other Christians out of existence. Your phrase "rival Catholic Churches" ahistorically assumes the Roman Catholic definition. That's not a valid approach, but thank you for making my point. I already acknowledged in my answer that some of the groups were indeed heretical (which of course begs the question of just who got to define what was and wasn't heretical then in the first place), so I'm not sure why you keep pointing that out. It makes no difference to the historical reality we are discussing.

Yes, @bwallac2335, I do "actually know" what the Albigensians and Bogomils believed. That goes all the way back to my undergrad days, many years ago. It's also not relevant (see paragraph above).

The two most cogent examples from the standpoint of later orthodoxy are the 4th Crusade and the five (five!) Crusades against the Hussites (which you more or less dismissed - see next paragraph), with the Waldensians getting an honorable mention.

Wow, an agreement with Rome was reached that allowed the Hussites to exist? Well, gosh, how mighty darn nice of 'em, to "allow" another Church to exist. I guess that makes up for driving one wooden stake through Jan Hus' cheeks and tongue, and another through his lips, before he was led away to be burned alive, after having endured squalid prison conditions, and that after having been guaranteed safe passage to and from the Council of Constance by the Holy Roman Emperor himself.

Are you serious with these silly objections? Come on...

 

I am not sure you made one serious point here. The goal posts keep on moving all the way from Stalwarts original claim that I made the argument against.

 

Just as a refresher. Here is what was originally posted"Well -- they're just one RC denomination amongst many. That was the whole point of this thread. There should have never been this myth that there is just one RC denomination.

The only way they kept themselves to being one in the middle ages, is they killed all the others. Literally called the crusades on rival denominations in Europe, and killed down to the last member.

In more civilized times, they're unable to do that, so there are hundreds of RC denominations around the world."

 

Exactly. That is the very heart of the matter.