Everything that i've ever read on Luther says he prayed the rosary and maintained Marian devotion until his death. I've never said that Marian devotion or asking for intercession is a duty or should be done by any or all Christians. I, personally, find it to be a helpful devotion, but not everybody is the same and I respect that. The only point i've tried to make is that it is not against Scripture nor is it harmful. Despite the wishes of evangelica/protestant leaning Anglicans, the 39 Articles are non-binding, end of story.
It certainly isn't in Scripture. The degree to which it is harmful rests on sound teaching and catechised laity. I will lay off the issue, since you do not insist upon it as a matter of faith. Though you do insist it is morally OK, I cannot convince you so it's silly to go round in circles. Only by the will of liberal bishops... - and, regardless of the legalistic view of "what's official?", our view is always "what's true?" We find it galling that you'd make "is it official?" your criteria of belief!
It is ignored for the same reason that we ignore what he wrote and said while an Augustinian monk: those views do not represent his actual theology, but are merely developments. One doesn't throw off the entire mass of the layers of medieval inventions and innovations, in order to discover the original Christianity underneath, overnight. It's not that 5 solas are truly Anglican, but that they are truly Christian. All of original Christianity taught them, by which I mean, not only Scripture, but all of the Church Fathers. For example, none of them taught the Theology of Merit which now forms the cornerstone of Romanist theology and is the reason why they must reject sola fide. Until the Doctrine of Merit was developed by Aquinas, as late as St. Anselm and St. Bernard, Christians taught sola fide. That's just one example. The same goes for the rest of the solas.
Except for the fact that Luther was far more radical in his early days then his later days. In fact, Luther was so conservative during the last phase of his life that he frustrated many of his contemporaries that wanted to take things farther than Luther was willing to go. Luther maintained Marian devotion and prayed the rosary until his death. The burden of proof is on you to show me that he threw off these "superstitions." We have been down the 5 sola road many many times, I see no need to continuing/starting a new discussion on them. We will have to agree to disagree.
Sean while you were writing this, I edited my post to tone down my frustrations with the liberalism rampant in the TEC.
Understood and thank you. There is no reason, while we are passionate about these issues, that we can't remain civil to each other and respect our differences. Besides a handful of doctrinal issues, I think that you, Hackney, and many of the others are actually pretty close in our beliefs. EDIT-I toned my previous post down as well. No reason why we can't remain civil and respectful.
Actually, You haven't, but there's no point in my posting anything more. Consular, seriously---enough with the decomposing body. The souls of the departed saints are not rotting in the ground with their bodies making it impossible to hear us because their ears have decomposed. To make such a claim is to deny all accomplished and conquered through Christ.
My proof is given, in that I need no proof to deny or negate something. You must prove what you say is possible, not I what is impossible. When did I make that connection between soul and body?! That's not at all what I meant! God forbid it! What I meant was that human beings only receive information from other human beings through the five senses - but the physical sensibilities of the saints are now defunct, so there is no contact between us. That does not mean we are outside Communion with each other! We are in community by virtue of the fact that we are in Christ's one universal Body, via Baptism. Alleluia! The body is the mode by which a human soul receives information from fellow humans still in the body. There's just no reason to assume that we can contact them. Why should we, when we have the all-glorious, holy, and blessed Trinity? I just don't see the point of ever drawing our attention away from the three divine Persons, in prayer. You see why I think this is a Gospel issue, and not just about Christian liberty and comfort?
A soul has no senses. All this stuff about the saints hearing us is based on a sort of sentimental vision of heaven, with the saints wandering about with their regular bodies or something. The fact is that they're asleep, and they're souls, not with our senses. They can't hear us. Even the Psalms ask if he who goes down to the tomb can hear, or be heard!
Consular, I must prove that something is possible, but you don't have to prove your claim that it isn't possible? That's a bit one-sided, don't you think? Where are you getting the following?
No, you must prove that the Scriptures allow or obligate us to pray to departed brethren. I don't need to prove that the Bible doesn't say it, because without proof that the Bible does say it, my position is proved. Does that make sense? If you say "the Bible says X", then you must show it. If I say "the Bible doesn't say X", my proposition is proved by not quoting anything! I get it from living as a human being! You know this, Anna - you're alive. We learn about things via the five senses. We only learn about God via hearing for example, as "faith is by hearing", wherever the Apostle says that. Even divine spiritual things come to us through the senses, at least in this world. Since the difference between the saints and us is the difference between two worlds, it seems dangerous to just assume that they're able to hear our temporal prayers with an omniscient heavenly ear. They're not God, and that's what it comes down to.
So your an expert then, eh? Those in Heaven are not asleep, that is soul sleep a doctrine of the SDA. You have no idea what the Saints can do, they are better off then we. I am sorry but I consider your idea close to heresy
Yeah. I found them printed there several years ago when I first picked up a BCP. Nobody denies that. But the doctrines presented in the BCP must be taken sensibly and as a whole. The Articles do not trump what we find in the liturgy, for example. And they also feature druids, dancing shamans, Arians, Pelagians, Gnostics, and an assortment of other beliefs. Some deny the virgin birth, some deny the miracles, some deny the divinity of Christ. You failed to mention all of these things. This is not Anglo-Catholicism, it's non-Christian lunacy. You might not care, but I share this for visitors to this forum who are being presented with parodies and falsehoods. Wrong. I strongly and completely disagree with your assertions.
I was about to make this point but I see you beat me to it lol. I have yet to hear a prayer to a departed saint that goes soemthing like this: Hi John, sorry to bother you, but I'm really have a lot of trouble right now, and I need some help, thanks mate, see you later And I wonder, we rarely ask another christian we don't know personally to pray for us. If we'ree in help we don't phone up a christian on th other side of the world we've never met before, we ask people to know us. Why should it be different in heaven?
Gnosticism is a very ancient tradition of Christianity too, and many bishops of the Church went to it. Men in Creeds and Councils can err and have erred, but "THE SCRIPTURES CANNOT BE BROKEN". Let the quiet breeze of God's breath be louder than the greatest shouts of the traditions of men. I have learned one thing from this thread: those who want to believe something will force themselves to believe it. Let us resort, all with one mind, to the Collect for this Sunday after Trinity. Almighty and everlasting God, give unto us the increase of faith, hope, and charity; and that we may obtain that which thou dost promise, make us to love that which thou dost command: through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
I've noticed that glory is often given to the "saint" that is prayed to, as in God especially heard St. so-and-so's prayer... for instance: "I prayed a novena to St ____ and my illness was cured." 1) That implies that God wouldn't have cured you had prayed directly to him. 2) Where is the Glory to God whom actually cured you? St _____ did not cure you.