Discussion of the Episcopal Church

Ok…but sowing divisions in the Church is, according to you, just a “Protestant problem”, not an “Anglican problem”. We all know that’s not true. All that much-vaunted “patristic” learning and “orthodoxy” didn’t prevent those of your ilk from mislabeling things as “heresy” which aren’t, and falling right into schism from the Anglican Communion as a result. You call yourself “Anglican” yet you are unwilling to associate with the sole canonical Anglican jurisdiction in the United States: The Episcopal Church. It makes absolutely no sense. Best remove the plank from your own eye before calling out the speck in your brother’s.

 

The Episcopal church is not a Church, because it is not Christian, let alone Anglican,.. so they are not an Anglican jurisdiction over the United states

 

From the episcopal church website:
In 1994, General Convention amended the church’s canons to prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, providing equal access to the rites and worship of The Episcopal Church, including ordination. Nine years later the Diocese of New Hampshire elected the first openly-gay bishop in The Episcopal Church, the Rt. Rev. V. Gene Robinson. This was, arguably, a turning point for the church.

Despite continued pressure from sister churches of the Anglican Communion, as well as some within The Episcopal Church, General Convention stood with its LGBTQ siblings. In 2009 it acknowledged and affirmed same-sex couples in the life of the church; in 2012 it called for the repeal of discriminatory federal laws, increased legal protections for domestic partners, and recommended a liturgy for blessing the relationships of same-sex couples.

Also in 2009, TransEpiscopal, a group dedicated to fostering the full embrace of trans and nonbinary people in life and worship of The Episcopal Church, sent its first delegation to General Convention. That year, Convention expressed support for laws that prohibit discrimination based on gender identity. In 2012, the canons of The Episcopal Church were amended to prohibit discrimination in the ordination process based on gender identity and gender expression.

Finally, in the summer of 2015, just five days after the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that same-sex couples had the legal right to marry, General Convention voted to amend the canons of The Episcopal Church that regulate marriage, permitting any couple the rite of Holy Matrimony. They also called for a name-change rite to honor an important moment in the lives of anyone claiming their true identity.


In 1994, General Convention amended the church’s canons to prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, providing equal access to the rites and worship of The Episcopal Church, including ordination. Nine years later the Diocese of New Hampshire elected the first openly-gay bishop in The Episcopal Church, the Rt. Rev. V. Gene Robinson. This was, arguably, a turning point for the church.

Despite continued pressure from sister churches of the Anglican Communion, as well as some within The Episcopal Church, General Convention stood with its LGBTQ siblings. In 2009 it acknowledged and affirmed same-sex couples in the life of the church; in 2012 it called for the repeal of discriminatory federal laws, increased legal protections for domestic partners, and recommended a liturgy for blessing the relationships of same-sex couples.

Also in 2009, TransEpiscopal, a group dedicated to fostering the full embrace of trans and nonbinary people in life and worship of The Episcopal Church, sent its first delegation to General Convention. That year, Convention expressed support for laws that prohibit discrimination based on gender identity. In 2012, the canons of The Episcopal Church were amended to prohibit discrimination in the ordination process based on gender identity and gender expression.

Finally, in the summer of 2015, just five days after the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that same-sex couples had the legal right to marry, General Convention voted to amend the canons of The Episcopal Church that regulate marriage, permitting any couple the rite of Holy Matrimony. They also called for a name-change rite to honor an important moment in the lives of anyone claiming their true identity.

As a fellow christian, I have to ask, how is this not heresy?

 

“But doesn’t acna ordain women? I’m very against women being priests or deacons or whatever else.”

Me too; whilst I agree that it is corruption, thankfully it is limited to approximately five dioceses: deacons are more widespread, but women priests are truly rare unless you’re in one of those dioceses, so you will have to look into whether your neighboring parishes are safe; but thankfully that’s as far as it goes, and we are working on fixing it further

 

This is such an absurd assertion I struggle to comprehend how you could even reach this far. The only way you could come to this conclusion is by being blinded by sectarianism and hatred for your brothers. Obviously TEC are Christian. Obviously TEC are Anglican.

This is a rose-tinted view of the Anglican Church, especially for an American. Your own Anglican Church has disintegrated into so many warring factions I can't even remember them all. I pray one day they will all unite once again - and that includes TEC, because yes, they are categorically Christian and blatantly Anglican. But even historically, we've not been great at remaining united:

1. The Presbyterians broke off from the historical pre-CoE Anglican Church in Scotland, which severed it from the reforming Church of England. (From Presbyterianism came JW's, Restorationism, etc.)
2. The Seekers (who would eventually become mostly known as the Quakers) broke off from the nascent Church of England in the 1620s.
3. The Methodists broke off from the Church of England through John Wesley. (From Methodism came Pentecostalism, Mormonism, Keswikianism, etc.)
4. The Baptists broke off from the Church of England through John Smyth. (From the Baptists came Adventism, etc.)
5. The Brethren, or Plymouth Brethren broke off from the Church of Ireland in the 1820s.
6. The Oxford Movement eventually broke off a significant group of Anglo-Catholics from the CoE that would eventually rejoin the Roman Catholic Church.
7. The Chinese Born Again Movement (Or Three-Self Church) broke of from Anglicanism through Henry Venn.
8. Plenty of African Syncretic Churches broke off from Anglicanism

I'd posit probably two thirds of all Protestant churches are either Anglican, splintered from Anglicanism, or splintered from a splinter of Anglicanism. Now yes, I agree Apostolic Government helps maintain unity (if not discipline), and prevents the breakdown of the church body to some extent, but we've still had our share of fracturing and schism. Far more so than the Lutherans and Continental Calvinists (a product of our population and that we were spread across the entire British Empire and USA, more than any unique vulnerability).

 

It is not obvious to me… they promote a female goddess, they don’t believe in a historical jesus, they don’t believe in biblical marriage, they abandon the historic church ordaining women, and they celebrate abortions and euthanasia as human blessings…. So to me they are not christian and there is nothing anyone can say to persuade me otherwise, short of them utterly repenting and confessing to all this their wickedness


“I'd posit probably two thirds of all Protestant churches are either Anglican, splintered from Anglicanism, or splintered from a splinter of Anglicanism”
That may be true it is no sign of an anglican schism, because it is not possible to keep within the church those beset with a schismatical intent of leaving it, short of using force and persecution to keep them in (something I am sure you would not be for)

by your standard then, Roman Catholicism is the most schismatic in the history of the world, since they probably had tens of thousands of outflowing movements, throughout history

 

This is my point. You're blinded by sectarianism.

• TEC does not promote a female goddess.
• TEC does believe in a historical jesus.
• Neither Christian nor Anglican mean believing in biblical marriage, as it is defined by ACNA.
• Neither Christian nor Anglican mean believing in an exclusively male priesthood.
• TEC does not doctrinally celebrate abortions and euthanasia as human blessings, one church leader is not reflective of an entire church. Even if it did, neither Christian nor (maybe) Anglican mean opposing abortions and euthanasia. I haven't thought about the Anglican part deeply. My intuition is that it's not necessary.

A Christian Church is one that believes in one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and that the Son came down from heaven, was made human and died for our salvation, and that He will come again. TEC believe these things and so they are Christian. Note: None of that has anything to do with the priesthood, not marriage, nor abortion. A Christian is someone who believes in the Christian God. Find me a Creed that says anything about abortion. Christians are sinners, all. Some simply more than others.

An Anglican Church is a Church that descends from the historic Church in Britain, and also bases their faith on the Christian Bible first, whilst still acknowledging the importance of the historic traditions of the Apostolic Church, adhering to Apostolic Succession and weights the writings of the Church Fathers. TEC ticks all of these boxes and so they are Anglican.

Of course Methodists and Baptists and Quakers and Presbyterians are evidence of Anglican schism. The same way the EO and Roman Churches are evidence of Early Church Schism, and the Lutherans, and Anglicans are evidence of RCC Schism. Anglicans have less schism then most protestant churches, I agree, I'm just suggesting you avoid thinking the Anglican Church is immune to schism. All churches have been historically prone to it, apostolic churches less than non-apostolic churches, but still prone nonetheless.

 

So by your count, you would add up all those who have left the RCC also? it is far more than those who left Anglicanism, tens of thousands of movements (millions of people) over the centuries… thus do you count the RCC as the most schismatic of them all?

How are you so sure of these things in Australia, more than somebody who lives in the United States, reads the news and deals with this stuff on a near-weekly basis?

 

My problem with the TEC is taht they have ventured from historic orthodox positions to adopt secular positions and then use amazingly newly discovered truths of the Bible to defend them

 

Such as?

 

That’s a very low standard to have for what constitutes a Christian. A Christian is not someone who checks off intellectual assent to certain creeds a Christian, aside from the creeds, is one who has truly left sin behind and strives to please the God who has justified him by faith. If you do not seek to please God, then you had a dead faith, and therefore are not a true Christian. A person who does not believe in “biblical marriage” (the only valid definition of marriage) as you put it is not showing fruits of being a genuine christian. A denomination which blesses same sex sin is not a church will is conductive to salvation, but one which will actually impede it. A christian is not ok with one of the sins God calls abominable to him. Our standard of Christianity is awfully low if all that is required for true faith is a mere assent to the creeds. TEC does not follow tradition, because tradition, like the Bible, would never allow a same sex “marriage” to happen in the vicinity of the church of God, much less inside one. “A Christian is someone who believes in the Christian God.”
I hope you know that belief in the Bible doesn’t mean an intellectual assent. It means a complete abandonment of your will to God. If God specifically says homosexuality is an abominable sin, how in the world can a church which considers itself Christian ever even consider for a mere second blessing a same sex “union?”

 

this standard is far from relevant, and taking it at face value most TEC people I know believe it in their own special way :

"A Christian Church is one that believes in one God, .."
".. the Father," <-- many TEC believe it was a mother
".. the Son" <-- many TEC believe he wasn't real or existed
".. and the Holy Spirit," <-- many TEC believe it's a She, female companion goddess
".. and that the Son came down from heaven, was made human and died for our salvation," <-- in the minds of the believers.. Not actually/historically
" ..." <-- no mention of the resurrection from you?
".. and that He will come again" <-- to judge use on the basis of critical race theory, critical Whiteness, body positivity, gender theory, and participation in Pride marches

It's a perversion and inversion of the Christian message, where every term in the creeds has been reinterpreted

 

LOL, so ridiculous. Next you’ll accuse us of believing the moon is made of cheese and that earthworms are spontaneously generated.

 

If I post for you guys the sayings from TEC bishops and various TEC-published books, will that be sufficient proof?..

 

Sufficient proof of what? Individual bishops don’t speak for the whole Church, nor is it the case that because a particular work is published by the Church’s publishing arm, that all the contents are endorsed and approved for official use. The Book of Common Prayer is our standard for doctrine and worship. Thus:

• We do not worship a “goddess”; our liturgy refers to the same Christian God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - that Anglican Prayer Books have for the last five hundred years;
• We absolutely believe that Jesus was a historical person(!);
• We proclaim Jesus’ resurrection and second advent multiple times in the liturgy, every single Sunday. The last time I checked, that’s what we celebrate each Easter as well.

I could go on but I’m not going to. Your comments are so wildly off-base I struggle to guess any explanation for them other than blind hatred.

 

i didn’t say that all these things are taught in the TEC book of common prayer, right? Can you show me where I said that?… all that I said is, “many in TEC believe such and such”

that means that many TEC *bishops* teach such and such (not just 1 or 2 or an odd outlier)
and that many TEC *books* teach it
and that many TEC *adherents* believe it

now since that’s what I said, will you register your agreement, that many TEC bishops teach those things, and many TEC books teach those things, and many TEC adherents believe those things?

 

Since Luther and so many others came out of the RCC down through the centuries, I too think they are the biggest source of splinters.

As for Mormons, though, no way did they spring from Methodism. Mormonism sprang from an evil, self-serving man, period. Joseph Smith was not the least bit godly, and because his character was known to be questionable the Methodists refused to have him when he applied for membership.

 

Presumably as many don't though, yes?
.

 

No. You said:

And:

You didn't make any effort to qualify your ridiculous accusations the first few times you made them, and I'm not going to agree to any stipulations from you now. Even if I did, they wouldn't have anything to do with substantiating the claims you've made. You have exited reality my friend, and I suspect you're in for a shock when you ultimately find out the Church is where you claim it isn't. The Scriptures don't say that "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is suddenly forgivable if you make up heresies out of thin air and then feign "orthodoxy" to foment schism. Just something to think about.

 

Gay marriage, women priest bishops are the two big main ones for me.