With some postings here I get the notion that we are damned and must try to get saved. Now my idea has always been that we are all saved as a norm. And only those who keep doing terrible things in their life may get damned - or better not. The idea that a loving God has created anybody - just in order to damn him or her for eternity - that does not feel right for me. Now my question is: Are we damned as a norm and must try to get saved? Or are we saved as a norm and must just avoid to get damned?
I do not see how we can be damned as a norm. Until one is about the age of seven or eight one cannot be culpable of wrongdoing. I know children misbehave, I've had three of my own. However, it is about this age when they begin to understand right from wrong and when their misbehaviour can become malicious. So I don't believe a baby is born damned. God certainly didn't create us to be damned. However, our first parents chose to disobey God and as a result we all have the proclivity to sin. I think we must try to get saved. That is we must live a life that makes us worthy of being saved. You cannot simply go through life doing exactly as you please and hope at the end you'll get to heaven. If you want eternal salvation you must follow Christ's teachings in the Gospels.
The way I was taught this, this question revolves around original sin… if we accept original sin as true, then I don’t see how everyone can be saved as a norm except a few bad people It seems that in our natural state we all reject God, are filled with concupiscence, and would rather seek out “the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” .. we are a broken and corrupt people We are the people who have crucified the messiah, and We are pontius pilate- everyone’s question is, What is truth? is it not? We are messed up and need redemption, and most of us will not make it…
It's a difficult thing to wrestle with. We are all born sinners, that much is known. We know that those who have faith in Christ can be saved, we know that too. What we don't know for certain is what happens to those who never had the chance to have faith in Christ - who died without hearing the Word or without the capacity to hear it. I don't think it's possible to know with any degree of certainty what happens, I certainly haven't found any concrete answers in scripture. It's certainly harsh to suggest we are born damned, but I don't think it's reasonable to dismiss the idea entirely, even if it causes us immense discomfort. Regardless of if we are born damned or not, by the time we're able to post on this forum we must try to be saved. There's no easy outs for us, and it's really hard work. Most people will not make it. "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it." ~ Matthew 7.13-14
Why this terribly negative attitude? I do not think that is in keeping with the Gospel. Gospel can be translated as: Good news! What you are preaching now is "Bad news!" Very bad news indeed. Did Jesus Christ come to spread these bad news?
Jesus Christ did not come to spread bad news. However, he do not go to the cross simply to proclaim good news. He was crucified for our sins. This attitude everything is okay and we are all friends and it feels nice and fuzzy is not the truth of Christianity. The Devil exists and he will do whatever he can to tempt us and lead us astray. That is not a negative attitude. It is a fact! We either follow the path to life that Christ offered or we stray from it. Following Christ's path does not promise to be easy. We have to behave the way Our Lord taught us and not just however we want. That is what the Devil tempts us to do. You can believe it is just a negative attitude if you wish. It is your own soul you are putting in jeopardy. Eternity is a very long time, indeed endless time, and I hope to spend mine in Heaven and not Hell.
“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” Luke 18:10-14
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God's will I may now at last succeed in coming to you. For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine. I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles. I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:7-21
Man on his own neither loves God nor deserves anything other than hell. But by the grace of God, giving us a heart of flesh instead of a heart of stone, those who have faith will be saved. Thank the Lord for his mercy to us miserable sinners! The beauty of salvation in Christ is that it isn't deserved or merited by us (we deserve the opposite), but that it is a free gift of a loving father to his rebellious, wayward children.
I know this text very well. Do you call me a Pharisee here now? That is a) not nice b) completely beside the point c) not the way I wanted to discuss
Are these your own words? So you would gladly condem to eternal hell all of us here? Is that typically Christian?
Romans 3:10-18 As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 2:23 ^ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, No one is born seeking what is right (other than Christ himself). Salvation would not be a "gift" if we were all born automatically saved. It would be like calling a new kidney a gift even though you already had two perfectly fine kidneys. Silvan, do you suggest that all humans deserve salvation?
I never said everyone here is going to hell. The natural state of man isn't saved. Rather, the natural state of man is that of enmity with God (damnation), but via the grace and mercy of Christ, we are granted undeserved salvation. I believe the Romanists also teach the doctrine of original sin. Silvan, are you a Romanist or an Anglican?
no friend, not at all, but merely that we need to acknowledge our guilt and sinfulness... In my experience anyone who has said "I am not sinful like those other guys" has not been correct.. I am sinful, you're sinful too That is all I meant when saying that we're all guilty of crucifying our Lord, namely that our entire human race, everyone without exception, has joined together to drive the stakes into him on the cross, and no one is innocent or "holier" than others, "No I'm holier, I wouldn't have crucified him. I'm a good person." Jesus says no, you too, we are all in need of redemption I think our friend is Roman Catholic although that could be mistaken
First three words in German. In German it is like this: If you study German at the university, you are a Germanist. If you study English at the university, you are an Anglist. If you study French or another Roman language at the university, you are a Romanist. Seeing it that way, I am both an Anglist and a Germanist, but no Romanist. That said, I declare: I have been baptized as a Catholic, and I am still a member of the RCC. But I have attended church services of nearly all the Christian denominations that exist. And I can find something good in all of them.
Yes, I am a member of the RCC. But that does not mean that I agree with everything that the RCC stands for at the moment. I am in favour of the marriage for priests, and I am in favour of women priests or priestesses.