Hello dear brothers and sisters this is my first post. My wife and I are Catholic, we are very worried that our 19 year old son is drifting away from Christianity. He has been attending online prayer and bible study with the Euston Church, I have pasted a link to their web site below. They have drilled into him that all the beliefs that we have taught him are false. At the moment we are discussing the holy sacrament of baptism with him, the Euston Church has convinced him that it's just symbolic, and that it has no real importance by giving him many examples, one of which is that in his baptism he did not receive the Holy Spirit. I contacted the Euston church, and they defended their position and what they teach by saying that they are part of the Church of England. I know that there are obvious differences between the Catholic and Anglican faiths, but I always believed that the two Churches agreed on the holy sacrament of baptism. I and my wife would be sad if he left the Catholic faith, but we would be able to accept this if he left and then entered into the true Church of England in the hope that he can be drawn back to real Christianity. In an attempt to make him understand that the Anglican Church believes and teaches that he did receive the Holy Spirit through baptism I contacted a local vicar, who kindly replied and explained that the Euston Church is on the margins of the Anglican Church and does not represent the true views of what the majority of Anglicans believe on baptism, the vicar even kindly suggested to meet my son. To this explanation the Euston Church replied to my son explaining that the view of this vicar is incorrect and that his belief is in the minority, and that the majority of Anglicans do not believe that he received the Holy Spirit when he was baptised. Could one of you point me in the correct direction for definite proof of the beliefs of the majority view within the Anglican Church on this topic please? Something perhaps like a video of the most Revd Justin Welby, or someone else very famous within the Anglican Church explaining the views of the Anglican Church on baptism. I think this would be the only way to convince my son, because I have shown him many articles, including U tube films of vicars explaining for example the 39 articles of religion. Hopefully this will make him believe in our local vicar and help him to join our local Anglican Church and return to believing in his baptism, even at the cost of leaving the Catholic faith. https://www.eustonchurch.com/#welcome-to-euston-church God bless you all. Kindest regards Silvano and Nicoletta.
Hi Silvano, I'm sorry to hear of the tension in your family, and pray you can find a peaceable solution. On your question, your local vicar is most certainly not in the minority. I have never heard of the Euston Church before, but if all you have said is true then I don't understand as how they could even be defined as "on the fringe" of the Anglican faith. Rejecting baptism as a sacrament and asserting it is symbolic is well beyond the fringe, it goes against the very foundational documents, the 'Constitution' if you will, of the Anglican Church. Article XXV. Of The Sacraments Sacraments ordained of Christ be not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession, but rather they be certain sure witnesses, and effectual signs of grace, and God's good will towards us, by the which he doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm our Faith in him. There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord. Any Church that rejects such a statement, in my opinion, cannot be considered Anglican without removing all meaning from the term. If your son is confident in his power of reason he has nothing to fear by meeting the vicar, especially if he is considering converting to the Church of England - given said vicar may soon be his vicar. Perhaps by hearing diverse opinions on the subject, and coming to his own conclusions, the Holy Spirit will guide him to the truth.
Dear ZachT, Thanks so much for your advice, the problem is that he does not believe the things that we show him, and even if he meets the vicar he would not believe what the vicar is saying, it's almost as if he has been brainwashed. Do you know of any film clips, for example of the most Revd Justin Welby, or someone else very famous within the Anglican Church explaining the beliefs of the Anglican church, I think that may be the only way to help him. Otherwise I fear that we will lose him spiritually .
Concise answer from someone less famous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR8yShZQ3kw&ab_channel=ChrisFindley Two of the most famous Anglican theologians of our day: N.T. Wright - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xjPI9KVPYM&ab_channel=Seedbed J.I. Packer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-TLkmQpsCY&ab_channel=Crossway
Dear Silvano I am sorry to hear the troubles you are having. However, I am not sure how you are going to resolve them. I think what your son is doing is not accepting what you, his parents, tell him. I think that is likely to be underlying all his actions and so whatever you bring forth as evidence he is likely to reject. I think the first thing to be grateful for is that he is not toally rejecting Christianity, which many adolescents do. I am always very cynical about places like the Euston Church. They try to make sure they're wearing the latest fashions, look hip and trendy, play music in their worship young people may like. I can see why a 19-year-old would find them attractive. If you are Catholics and you want your son to remain a Catholic I would not be trying to persuade him of Anglican theology, which is not what this Euston Church is teaching. I think that is going to add to confusion. I think all you can do is to have reasoned arguments with him. Teach him what the Catholic Church teaches. Show him the Catholic Church's evidence. There is plenty of it. When he rejects it and claims the Euston Church is right remain calm and ask him to objectively show the reason for believing them and not the Catholic Church. Remaining firm in your conviction; being calm, rational and objective; showing him the evidence and putting the burden on him to falsify it is, I believe the best way to go. It is going to take time, a lot of patience and holding your nerve.
Hi Silvano, and welcome. Sorry to hear of the ensions in your family but it may not be as bad as it seems for either yourselves or your son. That hurts, I'm sure, and he should appreciate that you have faithfully taught him what you believe to be true and obviously in his best possible interests. We all know what youngsters are like though and how they like to test truths for themselves before they fully 'own them', rather than just take their parent's word for it. It would seem though that your son may be drifting 'toward' a better understanding of what God wants from him, and for him, than 'Away from Christianity'. In fact rebellion and curiosity are age old human traits which go right back as far as the garden of Eden story. He is just 'tasting that forbidden fruit' for himself. Let's hope he actually gets 'knowledge of good' out of it and not too much of the other. I have little doubt that the 'Euston Church' is not truly in the Anglican main stream of theological orthodoxy, but it probably isn't an entirely go it alone sect either i.e. outside of orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Anglicans believe infants are fully entitled as children of believers, 'Holy to God', to be baptised visibly and spiritually into the church, as full members of the family of God. They, like everyone else though, must come to terms with God themselves, and this we believe happens 'offically' for most of us at confirmation. WE Anglicans view confirmation slightly differently than the Roman Catholic Church. We see it as the official time for an individual to take their baptismal vows, (made by their parents on their behalf along with promises to bring up the child in the true faith), to take those vows upon themselves, taking full responsibility for their own salvation, won for them as individuals, by Christ's Atonement, and pledging themselves to accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit upon their lives from henceforth, until the day of their death on earth. For this reason I think your son's attraction to this 'Euston Church's' teaching may even be a response to his orginal baptism beginning to take hold of him, 'in the Spirit', and indeed may be the evidence that you have both been looking for of the stirrings of the Holy Spirit in him, towards an equipping of him for service to God. If this 'Euston Church' want's to re-baptise him, perhaps by total immersion, don't get too phased by this. Baptism is not something capable of being repeated, but commitment is. Nothing can replace his original baptism, any further 'dunking' can only do him good, not harm, only one baptism is necessary for the remission of sins, and he has already had that. The 'Euston' church may think theirs the more valid but that is their own mistake, you know better than them what God has done in your son's life and in your own, it matters not what they might erroniously think. Just be thankful that his original baptism has definitely 'delivered' him to the spiritual 'condition' God and yourselves have always wanted him to finally arrive at. Even if he hasn't got all the way to Roman Catholicism, presumably God's happy with where He's getting him so far. .
Hi Silvano, Unfortunately you are dealing with a church that is potentially heretical, and at the very least unfaithful to the Anglican tradition. Just think of a Roman Catholic parish that teaches something contrary to the RC catechism, it's really no different. In terms of authoritative sources, you can point them to the Reformation-era doctrinal statements, such as the Prayer Book liturgy for Baptism that asserts baptismal regeneration: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1662/baptism.pdf Then the Prieſt ſhall take the Child into his hands, and ſhall ſay to the Godfathers and Godmothers, Name this Child. ¶ And then naming it after them (if they ſhall certify him that the Child may well endure it) he ſhall dip it in the Water diſcreetly and warily, ſaying, I baptize thee in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghoſt. Amen. Then the Prieſt ſhall ſay, WE receive this Child into the congregation of Chriſt’s flock; ... * Here the Prieſt ſhall make a Croſs upon the Child's forehead. Then ſhall the Prieſt ſay, Seeing now, dearly beloved brethren, that this Child is regenerate ... As well as the famous Reformational catechisms such as Nowell's Catechism, that states, https://www.anglican.net/works/alex...-institution-of-christian-religion-1572/#p7-2 Ma. What is the outward sign in Baptism? Sch. Water, wherein the person baptised is dipped, or sprinkled with it, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the holy Ghost. Ma. What is the secret and spiritual grace? Sch. Forgiveness of sins and regeneration : both which we have by the death and resurrection of Christ ; and thereof we have this Sacrament as a Seal and Pledge.
Nice to meet you, Silvano and Nicoletta. I hope I can reassure you a little if I say that, however much on the edges of Anglicanism Euston Church may be, it is still a Christian church and your son will be safe with them, for now. I suspect he will find (as many others have done) that the easy answers of Evangelical churches turn out to be not quite so convincing when life begins to turn out a little more complicated, and when prayer doesn't quite do what they claim it will. Teenagers will rebel; it is part of life, and it is possible that all your efforts to explain and convince him will only serve to entrench him further in thinking that you are mistaken. I am afraid you will have to leave this one to the Holy Spirit, and trust God to bring your son home in His own time. Remember St Monica, and never despair. I would also suggest not discussing this any further with your son; tell him you are entrusting him to God's hands. I started my journey of faith with a church in Newcastle known as Jesmond Parish Church; since then it has gone so far towards the edge that it might even have fallen off by now. I liked the people and the enthusiasm, but some part of me always knew it wasn't quite the right fit. Over the years I continued to look and eventually found that I am much more at home with the traditional parts of the church. I am now what I suppose might be called a liberal Anglo Catholic. Jezzy P would be mortified to know this, or that I paint icons. Perhaps I should let them know! Trust God, & remember this quote: Nothing true can be said about God from a posture of defence. Marilynne Robinson. No need at all to defend God; that's his job. Take care.
Dear Legion, Thanks so much for your advice, I am pleased that the Holy Spirit has saved you from the Jesmond Parish Church, you are correct; I have noticed that the more we insist the more he drifts away. He now accepts that within the Anglican Church there is belief that baptism saves but he believes that this belief is in the minority. However I don't agree that he is safe in the Euston Church, I believe to be a Christian means following the teachings of Christ. If you go on line you can see the recorded "services" of this Church. During them, there is no Lord's Prayer, no Eucharistic celebration. My son has been attending these "services" for more than 7 months and he admits to never having heard them say the Lord's Prayer or indeed celebrate the Eucharist, and even more shockingly he believes that this is normal. The Bible teaches us how to pray, how to celebrate Mass, the importance of baptism and so many other things that are not fulfilled within this Church. As for him eventually leaving this Church, I hope that you are correct, however not everyone is as lucky as you. During these online "services" you actually see older, more mature people; the followers of this Church are not only young people. I worry that he will not leave and become like these followers. I would be very interested to hear from others that say that they belong to the Church of England but do not believe in baptismal regeneration? And on what grounds they base this belief on? God bless you all.
Let's get a few misconceptions concerning regeneration and baptism out of the way but first let's define what is meant by regeneration. Regeneration: Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God's work, a "new creature." The heart is the seat of the conscience (Rom 2:15). It is naturally wicked (Gen 8:21), and hence it contaminates the whole life and character (Matt 12:34; Matt.15:18; comp. Eccl 8:11; Ps 73:7. Hence the heart must be changed, regenerated (Ezek 36:26; Ezek 11:19; Ps 51:10 -14), before anyone can willingly obey God. Once regenerated a believer will continue in a state of grace. Once justified and regenerated, the believer can neither totally nor finally fall away from grace, but will certainly persevere therein and attain everlasting life. The process of salvation begins in the heart by the believing reception of the testimony of God, while the rejection of that testimony hardens the heart (Ps 95:8 Prov 28:14; 2 Chr 36:13). "Hardness of heart evidences itself by light views of sin; partial acknowledgment and confession of it; pride and conceit; ingratitude; unconcern about the word and ordinances of God; inattention to divine providences; stifling convictions of conscience; shunning reproof; presumption, and general ignorance of divine things." About baptism: (1) It is not possible for anyone, by any means, to confer regeneration on anyone against their will or against the will of God. (2) It is not possible for a babe in arms to express an opinion regarding whether they want to be regenerate or not. Therefore there is no possibility of anyone knowing that the babe in arms necessarily, has immediately just gone from an unregenerate to a regenerate state simply by the application or even emersion in water, however and by whoever that rite may have been administered. (3) There is no scriptural warrant whatever for assuming that regeneration, (see the above definition of the term), has actually taken place in an infant at the moment of their baptism. However: The baptism of infants can still confer regeneration in a spiritual sense that, by faith, of the parents and of the church, and by the promise of God that He will be the God of the believing parent's offspring just as He is of the parents themseves, (assuming He already is), the infant has received the irrevocable promise of God, that God has adopted him/her as His child, (they are Holy to God already), and therefore God is committed to leading him/her to a state of regeneration, in which he/she will fulfil God's intended destiny for them. (God is unwilling that any should perish, but judgment also begins at the house of God, and the child now comes under God's discipline. Heb.12:6, Heb12:10, 2 Pet.3:9.) Whether regeneration takes place at some future time, in actuality, in the maturing human being, being baptised as a babe in arms and becoming a full member of the visible church on earth, will depend upon how receptive they are to the Word of God, (who is Jesus Christ). All of us can only come to the Father through Him. .