No I do think Anna is right on the money, the only source that HH has been able to quote is article 22 which is in relation to invocation of saints and worship of icons or statues to plead for time off in purgatory. sorry changed the don't to a do....
Anglican doctrine upholds the New Testament doctrine of the communion if saints which is not concerned with communication between the living and the departed but rather with our redemption. The faithful departed are with Christ as as are the faithful here on earth - so there is a fellowship, a communion in Christ which both the living and the departed share. Because we don't have solid assurance that the saints in heaven hear us, direct address to them is thought inappropriate in the Church of England and therefore is not found in the official worship of the church. Hence the Sarum collects for saints days were rewritten for use in the first Prayer Book of 1549 to remove invocation. Likewise, the petitions to the saints were removed from the Litany. Such is still the case with our current official formularies: the BCP 1662 and Common Worship 2000. For private prayer, direct address to the saints in heaven is not condemned provided that all we ask is their intercession for ourselves or others. To ask for anything other would be considered wrong and lapsing into the Medieval abuses.
Did you read the post with the quotes from the Homilies? Did you read Pearson's Exposition of the Creeds? Did you consult the commentaries of Burnet or Browne? Have you consulted the sermons of the Caroline Divines?
In fact, I have a challenge for you. If you can point to any Anglican theologian, canon, source, or anything before 1833 that allows for the invocation of the saints, I'll rescind any comments made on this thread. Of course, these must be Anglican sources.
Gordon, This is precisely the point that Fr. Jonathan, a Classical Anglican who assents to the 39 Articles, makes---as we discussed on a previous thread about purgatory: Invocation of the Saints "This difference over grace illuminates why Article XXII rejects other practices, such as the worship of relics and invocation of saints. Remember, the Articles are surgical and precise, differentiating Anglicanism from other churches, not making comprehensive statements. Article XXII is not meant to be the Church of England’s definitive statement on saints but merely to distance Anglicanism from the Roman Church’s teaching on purgatory and other doctrines which flow from that. Thus, we see in the seventeenth century Divines a plethora of different ideas about what is or isn’t appropriate practice in regards to the saints. For instance, Joseph Hall is able to dismiss the whole idea of prayer with or to the saints as “absurd,” while Richard Montague and Herbert Thorndike see nothing wrong with the Church calling upon the saints in the liturgy or even asking for the saints to pray for us, so long as no one is forced to do so. Even amongst those who are most critical of invocation of saints, there is an acknowledgement that the saints are present with us in worship and even a respect for the non-biblical yet widely held idea of patron saints for various peoples and places (Saint George being the patron saint of England, for example). Anglicanism’s great concern over the invocation of the saints is not the idea that we can ask the saints to join us in our prayers, but that we somehow need the saints to intercede for us or else we will have an insufficient amount of grace for our salvation. It is this error in regards to grace that leads to the folk practice of worshiping saints as some kind of demi-gods. The issue is not the saints themselves. The issue is grace."
Symphorian and Anna - thanks both your posts are well thought out and very relevant to what we have been talking about.
Yep it is the best way to keep sane and not get too mixed up in petty arguments about doctrine... I made the mistake of getting way too involved with this one actually and I will endeavour not to in the future... meanwhile I am off to ask our Blessed St. Francis to remember me in his prayers....
So you've taken nothing from this entire thread, that can give you a second thought about asking dust to pray for you? If Francis of Assisi is in Heaven, he is already praying. Isn't that enough? Is CHRIST NOT ENOUGH for you people? That's what my indignation comes down to; I am very sad if I think the glory and uniqueness of my Lord the Advocate and Mediator is being made equal to sinners!
No - because I don't believe that is what article 22 is talking about in relation to my private prayer, or whether I ask you to pray for me or St. Francis to prayer for me or for that matter it makes no difference as to whether I recite the dual prayer as part of my liturgy of the hours. I believe you guys are misinterpreting and adding too broad a scope to the article.
Hackney, Your proposed "challenge" is simply a diversion tactic, as were your false assumptions about my beliefs and motives. I simply asked you to provide a source for your claim that Anglicanism forbids invocation of the Saints. You cited the 39 Articles. Apart from your understanding of the 39 Articles, you have not provided an official source "forbidding" invocation of the Saints in Anglicanism. Not all Anglicans, who do accept the 39 Articles in their entirety, agree with your claim that Article XXII forbids us to ask for the prayers of the Saints, as noted clearly in my previous post--which you ignored.
See my post 81. Attacking Gordon, by making a false assumption about his beliefs, is inappropriate. You would see that your assumptions are false, if you read Gordon's posts more carefully. Anna
Well, he did say, “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” There must be a way to apply this to online forum life. Perhaps, Christian charity works online or in person.
I propose we use another expression, since those debating this are in the TEC: "Does the TEC allow for the invocation of the saints?" In parallel we can also ask, "Has historical/classical Anglicanism allowed for the invocation of the saints". These two are separate questions.
I think this a fine idea. The 21st century doctrine of our Church might be interesting to some. BTW, are you somehow suggesting that those TEC members here would accept the position of TEC, or even that the position of TEC was important to what they considered right action? I'm a relative newcomer here, but I haven't found TEC's position to be a standard (except for darts).
Obviously, TEC allows invocation of the Saints, as many Anglicans do ask for the prayers of the Saints. I also have noticed that Anglicans interpret the 39 Articles differently--as demonstrated by my post quoting Fr. Jonathan, a Classical Anglican who does follow the 39 Articles. I've read many of his interpretations of the 39 Articles and actually find very little disagreement between my beliefs as an Anglo-Catholic and Fr. Jonathan's beliefs as a Classical Anglican.
That is fine brother Consular you are just as entitled to your truth as anyone else on here is entitled to theirs, and that is simply the point some have been trying to make here. When I write something and I put it under a heading in this case purgatory in the full knowledge that the church taught that you could buy indulgences through various methods including invocation of the Saints then I would expect people reading my document to use it in that context. I honestly don't see this argument differently then I do when I hear people cherry pick scripture and use it out of context to prove a point, but then again I may be wrong.