Saints

Thanks for the explanation. I will have to to revisit those posts to see if the qoutes agreed with Scripture or the context of what the fathers were saying as they along with scripture are often misqouted.

 

Your honesty is refreshing, Robert.

You will note on sites/posts like this, that many Fathers are presented as having said that we should invoke the saints, when they were actually just talking about the ongoing intercession of the saints. Since I've never heard of a Protestant who says there are no saints in Heaven and thus they never intercede for us, it seems a bit pointless to argue about a thing we all agree about.

Oh, and don't trust any quotes of "the divine liturgy of St. X", because there's no proof Chrysostom or Basil wrote the famous liturgies. Even if they did, many additions were tacked on over 1000+ years

It seems our Orthodox and R.C. brethren understand "saintly intercession" to include our invoking them, but it isn't the same thing. They intercede for us regardless of whether we ask. I've always thought asking them would be a bit of an insult, since it's all they're doing anyway.

The 39 Articles are only binding for the Church of England? Are they even spiritually/traditionally/respectfully binding in Episcopalianism? :think: Interesting...

 

Hackney,
I'm aware of what the Articles say. The Lambeth Conference Resolutions made The Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion nonbinding. So, you'll have to provide another source for your statement, "Anglicanism forbids the invocation of the saints."

Resolutions from 1968
Resolution 43
The Ministry - The Thirty-Nine Articles
"The Conference accepts the main conclusion of the Report of the Archbishops' Commission on Christian Doctrine entitled "Subscription and Assent to the Thirty-nine Articles" (1968) and in furtherance of its recommendation:
(a) suggests that each Church of our Communion consider whether the Articles need be bound up with its Prayer Book;
(b) suggests to the Churches of the Anglican Communion that assent to the Thirty-nine Articles be no longer required of ordinands;
(c) suggests that, when subscription is required to the Articles or other elements in the Anglican tradition, it should be required, and given, only in the context of a statement which gives the full range of our inheritance of faith and sets the Articles in their historical context."

Resolutions from 1888
Resolution 19
That, as regards newly constituted Churches, especially in non-Christian lands, it should be a condition of the recognition of them as in complete intercommunion with us, and especially of their receiving from us episcopal succession, that we should first receive from them satisfactory evidence that they hold substantially the same doctrine as our own, and that their clergy subscribe articles in accordance with the express statements of our own standards of doctrine and worship; but that they should not necessarily be bound to accept in their entirety the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion.

 

The 39 Articles of Religion are part of the doctrine, discipline, and worship of the Episcopal Church from their inclusion in the Prayer Book. But since you don't accept their authority, where does the 1979 BCP authorize the invocation of saints?

 

I forgot to turn off e-mail notifications for this thread. My curiosity was piqued! But since they deny the authority of the Articles and any other binding source of catholicity in Anglicanism, Anglo-Catholics' notion of catholicity becomes a cafeteria of pick-and-choose what you want to be catholic.

 

The Hackney Hub,

Can you respond to the rest of my post so that I can understand where you are coming from?
"My question is if the Creed expounds what Christians believe and we recite that we believe in the Communion of the Saints doesn't the Creed trump any and all of the Articles? If we place this Article above the Creed aren't we at the very least violating lex orandi, lex credendi?"

 

Whilst the 39 Articles may no longer be binding they are still cited by the Church of England as one of the sources of its doctrine.

Current Canons, 7th Edition:
Canon A 5 Of the doctrine of the Church of England
The doctrine of the Church of England is grounded in the Holy Scriptures, and in such teachings of the ancient Fathers and Councils of the Church as are agreeable to the said Scriptures. In particular such doctrine is to be found in the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer, and the Ordinal.

Also note:
Canon A 2 Of the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion
The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God and may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England.

When the first English Litany was sanctioned in 1544 under the reign of Henry VIII we find: (original spelling)

Holy virgin Mary, mother of God our Savyour Jesu Chryst:
Praye for us.
All holy Aungels and Archaungels and all holye orders of blessed spirites:
Praye for us.
All holy patriarkes, and Prophetes, Apostles, Martyrs, Confessors, & Virgins, and all the blessed company of heaven:
Praye for us.

Whilst overall the Litany remained much the same in the English Books of Common Prayer that followed, the above petitions were removed and invocation of the saints does not appear in any of them. (Also the case with the Litany in Common Worship 2000).

Moving to the present time, Common Worship 2000 has several Eucharistic Prayers that mention the saints but don't ask for their intercession. For example:

Gather your people from the ends of the earth to feast with the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Peter, Saint Paul and all your saints at the table in your kingdom, where the new creation is brought to perfection in Jesus Christ our Lord; by who, and with whom......
or
Bring us at the last with the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Peter, Saint Paul and all the saints to the vision of that eternal splendour for which you have created us; through Jesus Christ our Lord; by who, and with whom......

In the modern CofE, invocation of the saints may have tacit approval but it is not found in any of her official liturgical sources: BCP 1662 or CW 2000.

 

This one is addressed to both Consular and HH asking the Saints to pray for you is not worshipping them it is no different then you asking the members of this forum to pray for you. I am not talking about Roman Church doctrine I am talking about remembering those who have gone before us and asking them to pray for us.

Further more the article above was in the context of Purgatory and asking the Saints to get you some time off.

 

Sorry HH but from what I have seen some of you quote the early Fathers when it fits with what you are discussing and dismiss them when it doesn't in my opinion.

 

Protestants who say anyone worships the saints are just wrong. The Invokers vs. Anti-Invokers strife is about the uniqueness and glory of God, though.

I dare say asking saints to pray for you isn't just like asking anyone to pray for you. The big difference is that we are alive and can hear your requests! The saints cannot be asked - they're dead and gone. The only way human beings can perceive other human beings is via the ears or the eyes for hearing and seeing; otherwise, there is no way to communicate with them. Rather difficult when you have no ears or eyes left, and are a non-resurrected soul. The invoking-party takes the "cloud of witnesses" and "He is God of the living" verses a bit too far, in my opinion.

Just a little point, maybe trivial: Jesus said "pray for one another", not "ask one another to pray for one another". There's no specific commandment that tells us to ask each other; we are just to do it.

Since humans have to be telepathic and omniscient to both hear prayers from all across the world, this doctrine forces us to believe that the saints have God-like qualities. We pray for one another, as Jesus commands, but we cannot ask for the prayers of people who aren't present.

 

Invocation of the saints means asking them to pray for you. The Articles condemn invoking them in any sort of prayer.

 

Here's a loving historical review of the most famous Tract, by Hackney:

http://thehackneyhub.blogspot.ca/2012/08/the-destructive-influence-of-tract-90.html

We can promote our views, and you your views, without getting into a tiff. I certainly don't want bad blood...

 

HH,

Can you respond to the rest of my post so that I can understand where you are coming from?
"My question is if the Creed expounds what Christians believe and we recite that we believe in the Communion of the Saints doesn't the Creed trump any and all of the Articles? If we place this Article above the Creed aren't we at the very least violating lex orandi, lex credendi?"

 

Stalwart, I don't think that article XXII is incompatible with the term 'communion of saints'. (COS). The term COS does not refer to saints in the canonized sense but using the New Testament definition are those who have been consecrated or sanctified by admission into the Church of God - those who have been set apart by Baptism to be a member of Christ. This includes the Church Militant here on earth and the Church Triumphant in heaven. We are in communion, for example in the Eucharist when we say:

Therefore with Angels and Archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify Thy glorious name, evermore praising Thee, and saying: Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Sabaoth; heaven and earth are full of Thy glory; Hosannah in the highest. Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosannah in the highest.

 

The idea of the Communion of the Saints is not opposed to Article 22. The Communion of the Saints doesn't imply direct invocation by Christians on earth. The saints do pray for us, no one is denying that but it is not proper or necessary for Christians to invoke them in prayer. The Church only accepts the Creeds and the Articles because they are agreeable to Holy Scripture, they have no authority on their own.

 

Hackney,
You are answering a question with a question. So, again, I ask for your source for the following statement:

 

I provided the source. You don't accept the formularies. I can't combat individualism, sorry.

 

I didn't say whether or not I invoke the Saints. I just asked you for a source for your statement, "Anglicanism forbids the invocation of the saints. . . ."