Was this ok during the Liturgy

Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by bwallac2335, Nov 30, 2020.

  1. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    John 13:21-30. Jesus Foretells His Betrayal
    After saying this Jesus was troubled in spirit, and declared, ‘Very truly, I tell you, one of you will betray me.’ The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he was speaking. One of his disciples—the one whom Jesus loved—was reclining next to him; Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. So while reclining next to Jesus, he asked him, ‘Lord, who is it?’ Jesus answered, ‘It is the one to whom I give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.’ So when he had dipped the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot. After he received the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, ‘Do quickly what you are going to do.’ Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. Some thought that, because Judas had the common purse, Jesus was telling him, ‘Buy what we need for the festival’; or, that he should give something to the poor. So, after receiving the piece of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.​

    John of course does not as such have an institution narrative, and much of the theological force of the sacramental understanding is carried in John 6 in the narrative of the feeding and the Bread of Life discourse. I would take the view that a straightforward approach would conclude that Judas was present.
     
  2. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    It also makes sense of the sentence "Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.” Matt.26:26-29.

    If Judas was not present by this time, the sentence would not have been adressed to all the twelve but only to eleven of them. One wonders then what the all is there in the sentence for. I assumed he meant all his disciples needed to partake of that sacrament, (especially Judas Iscariot), even that the many for whom Christ's blood would be poured out, applied to every human being ever born on earth, without exception.
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  3. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    In all fairness, I have to say that I'm convinced Judas was probably not present for the consecrated elements. They were eating a traditional Jewish Passover meal, including unleavened bread with bitter herbs. The time at which Jesus took bread, broke it, gave it to the disciples and said "Take, eat, this is my body," would have been near the tail end of things and after most of the meal had been consumed. Likewise the consecrated cup was the third ceremonial cup of wine, near the tail end. It doesn't sound in John 13 as if Judas stuck around for this latter part.
     
  4. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    This is what charaterises the connundrum in my view. Judas certainly left at some point earlier than the other 11. Did he skip the foot washing also? Is his absence at some point even perhaps a warning metaphor for the critical, final abdication of faith within any reprobate sinner, when 'Satan enters in'?

    It was certainly a disastrous fall from grace and the epitomy of 'being lost'. Yet without his 'betrayal' of Christ we, the human race, might have no atonement with God and no sacrificial 'lamb' to slay to release us from the penalty for sin. We would just collect our well earned wages, death.

    But that in itself poses a puzzle. Jn.17:12 seems to indicate that Judas alone was 'lost', though he is not named. Jn.18:9 seems to indicate that none were lost, not even Judas unless Judas was never 'given' to Christ in the first place. But Christ chose him, not a single one of the disciples chose Christ. Jn.15:16.
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    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
  5. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Hi everyone,

    The side conversation on the efficacy of confession and absolution, was moved here:
    https://forums.anglican.net/threads/efficacy-of-confession-and-absolution.4099/
     
  6. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure which prayerbook you are using but nothing in the 1928 BCP instructions permit substituting the Litany for the prayer, confession, and absolution that I can find. Are there other authorities on the subject??