I didnt want to derail the previous thread but after hearing a lot of the reasons why people don't accept justification by faith alone I have often wondered if a lot would be happy with if the phrase was changed to "justification by living faith alone"? This wouldn't change the protestant doctrine in any way and would clarify it from some of the objections. Anna, what do you think?
I'm not Anna, but I do think. That's an interesting proposition! It's been a long day, so I'm not really capable of plumbing theological depths tonight haha. My issue with the term "justification by faith alone" is that it can be used to minimize the Christian life. Faith is a gift. Salvation is a gift. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Justification is the start of that Christian journey. Since "faith" is often reduced to mere "intellectual assent," and salvation is often reduced to "repeating the Sinner's Prayer," sometimes the sola fide crowd places too much emphasis on feelings or mental acknowledgement. I'm not trying to pick on anybody but myself; I did that for many years. Not understanding enough about faith made me incapable of understanding a full Christian life. The idea of living by faith is a great one! I'm going to be careful with the word "alone" until I can give this some more thought!
Catholics seem to think this is small stuff, generally-speaking. Are you sure you're not de-emphasising theology for the sake of unity? One over the other is never good... I will try to restrain myself in this thread... but Paul is very adamant that a judaizing attitude toward works is wrong. In Corinthians he says that a Christian need not worry about eating meat from sacrificed idols, for idols are worthless and nothing. In Galatians he emphasises the freedom of Christians from works-righteousness. In Ephesians all is about the glorious faith: faith this, faith that. In Romans 3:28 he simply says we are justified by faith, apart from the works of the Law. This is not small stuff my friend. If our good works make us acceptable in the eyes of God's justice, then a strong faith is actually meaningless - the works themselves are the necessity, not the spirit behind them, right? It's our human psychology. If faith and works justify us equally, the works still stand out as the necessary part. Of course, we are saved by faith that does good works, and without good works we live no Christian life and dishonour our Lord Jesus. One of the biggest problems in converting is often the 'contradiction' between James and Paul, a famous one. It doesn't look like a contradiction to me anymore, because of simple logic: James says we are not justified by faith alone - Paul says we are justified by faith alone, apart from the works of the Law. Paul means THE Law, not good works in general. The justification of Romans 3:28 can be seen as a faith which works, then, but not which is beholden to the scrupulosity of the Old Law. There's no other way to see it without a gross contradiction between the two Apostles? Please, I beg no one to see this as a small-fry issue. If God is for us, who can be against us? It's everything...
The problem i think lyes in the understanding of the original greek and the context in which james is speaking ..
Scottish Knight, When we discuss justification; we are really discussing salvation, which includes many factors, including Baptism as demonstrated in the other thread. We must view the whole picture of salvation, according to what has been revealed to us through Holy Scripture. When considering justification by faith; we must remember that it is only through Christ that we can be justified. Christ was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification (Romans 4:24-25). As one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men (Romans 5:18). The salvic element of faith comes from Christ, who is the founder and perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:1-2). Anglicans will say that we are justified by "faith" or even "justified by faith alone." However, this justification must be viewed in the context in which the Sacramental life of the Church is acknowledged, and the salvic role of the Sacraments is made clear---the Sacraments being a means, chosen by God, in which Graces are imparted. In the Eucharistic prayers, the Celebrant asks that we be united with Christ in His sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The 1979 U.S. Book of Common Prayer Holy Eucharist Rite II ". . . .And we offer our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving to you, O Lord of all; presenting to you, from your creation, this bread and this wine. We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon these gifts that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant. Unite us to your Son in his sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. In the fullness of time, put all things in subjection under your Christ, and bring us to that heavenly country where, with [__________ and] all your saints, we may enter the everlasting heritage of your sons and daughters; through Jesus Christ our Lord, the firstborn of all creation, the head of the Church, and the author of our salvation. By him, and with him, and in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit all honor and glory is yours, Almighty Father, now and for ever. AMEN. . . ." Fr. Jonathan, an Episcopal Priest and Classical Anglican, discusses salvation on his blog: The Conciliar Anglican As an Anglo Catholic, I expected to have sharp disagreements with Fr. Jonathan, especially since he insists on a faith as taught by the 39 Articles. Anglo Catholics lean more towards acknowledging the 39 Articles as historical documents that are not fully binding. However, when I first started reading Fr. Jonathan's interpretation of the 39 Articles, I found that our beliefs are not that far apart. Fr. Jonathan does an excellent job of explaining different Protestant views on salvation and comparing those views to Classical Anglicanism. So, I think his writings are very helpful to non Sacramental Protestant Christians inquiring about the Anglican Church. Fr. Jonathan does discuss justification in salvation and other elements as well. You can also search his blog for more on justification. Link: But how are we saved? I hope this is helpful. Peace and blessings, Anna
Thanks for the links Anna. I didn't know this "Father" Jonathan was of the so-called classical variety. When I see "Fr." I immediately assume "Anglo-Catholic". What are some proof-texts to show that the Sacraments save us, and dispense the grace of God?
I am de-emphasising theology because at the end of the day it is like a Bible commentary it is just someones else's opinion, that is not to say theology is a bad thing because it keeps the intellectuals in the Church busy and has done so since the first person tried to fathom why we are all here. LOL The big stuff in my opinion revolves around these two commandments: So the big stuff is: 1. How does my relationship with God and the community fit within these two commandments? 2. Do I believe that Jesus died for me? 3. How can ensure I live up to these two great commandments? 4. If I do have faith that Jesus did die for me and I strive to live by these two great commandments then surely good works follow from that faith. I honestly don't believe it is rocket science... LOL The rest is the small stuff and the structure that has been built by others around the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. As far as the unity question goes, there are people like me who pray for the unity of the Church of Jesus Christ on a daily basis. We may do so in vain but we still pray that one day common sense will prevail. So to summarise all that - the big stuff is your relationship with God, the small stuff is the method you use to achieve that.
Consular, Baptism: I gave the Biblical sources for the Graces imparted during Baptism on the other thread: Baptism and The forgiveness of sins Holy Eucharist: The Graces imparted during the Lord's Supper/Holy Eucharist include eternal life, and being raised at the last day, Christ abiding in us and us in Him, etc. Read John Chapter 6 (ESV). Not everyone will participate in all of the remaining Five Sacraments, since not all Anglicans will be ordained or get married, etc. The Graces in the other 5 Sacraments are readily evident from reading Holy Scripture. If you have a question about one that you don't recall from Scripture, let me know. Also, see: The 1979 Book of Common Prayer, An Outline of the Faith commonly called the Catechism, The Sacraments Q. What are the sacraments? A. The sacraments are outward and visible signs of inward and spiritual grace, given by Christ as sure and certain means by which we receive that grace. Q. What is grace? A. Grace is God’s favor towards us, unearned and undeserved; by grace God forgives our sins, enlightens our minds, stirs our hearts, and strengthens our wills. Q. What are the two great sacraments of the Gospel? A. The two great sacraments given by Christ to his Church are Holy Baptism and the Holy Eucharist. Holy Baptism Q. What is Holy Baptism? A. Holy Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us as his children and makes us members of Christ’s Body, the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom of God. Q. What is the outward and visible sign in Baptism? A. The outward and visible sign in Baptism is water, in which the person is baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Q. What is the inward and spiritual grace in Baptism? A. The inward and spiritual grace in Baptism is union with Christ in his death and resurrection, birth into God’s family the Church, forgiveness of sins, and new life in the Holy Spirit. Q. What is required of us at Baptism? A. It is required that we renounce Satan, repent of our sins, and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Q. Why then are infants baptized? A. Infants are baptized so that they can share citizenship in the Covenant, membership in Christ, and redemption by God. Q. How are the promises for infants made and carried out? A. Promises are made for them by their parents and sponsors, who guarantee that the infants will be brought up within the Church, to know Christ and be able to follow him. The Holy Eucharist Q. What is the Holy Eucharist? A. The Holy Eucharist is the sacrament commanded by Christ for the continual remembrance of his life, death, and resurrection, until his coming again. Q. Why is the Eucharist called a sacrifice? A. Because the Eucharist, the Church’s sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, is the way by which the sacrifice of Christ is made present, and in which he unites us to his one offering of himself. Q. By what other names is this service known? A. The Holy Eucharist is called the Lord’s Supper, and Holy Communion; it is also known as the Divine Liturgy, the Mass, and the Great Offering. Q. What is the outward and visible sign in the Eucharist? A. The outward and visible sign in the Eucharist is bread and wine, given and received according to Christ’s command. Q. What is the inward and spiritual grace given in the Eucharist? A. The inward and spiritual grace in the Holy Communion is the Body and Blood of Christ given to his people, and received by faith. Q. What are the benefits which we receive in the Lord’s Supper? A. The benefits we receive are the forgiveness of our sins, the strengthening of our union with Christ and one another, and the foretaste of the heavenly banquet which is our nourishment in eternal life. Q. What is required of us when we come to the Eucharist? A. It is required that we should examine our lives, repent of our sins, and be in love and charity with all people. Other Sacramental Rites Q. What other sacramental rites evolved in the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? A. Other sacramental rites which evolved in the Church include confirmation, ordination, holy matrimony, reconciliation of a penitent, and unction. Q. How do they differ from the two sacraments of the Gospel? A. Although they are means of grace, they are not necessary for all persons in the same way that Baptism and the Eucharist are. Q. What is Confirmation? A. Confirmation is the rite in which we express a mature commitment to Christ, and receive strength from the Holy Spirit through prayer and the laying on of hands by a bishop. Q. What is required of those to be confirmed? A. It is required of those to be confirmed that they have been baptized, are sufficiently instructed in the Christian Faith, are penitent for their sins, and are ready to affirm their confession of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Q. What is Ordination? A. Ordination is the rite in which God gives authority and the grace of the Holy Spirit to those being made bishops, priests, and deacons, through prayer and the laying on of hands by bishops. Q. What is Holy Matrimony? A. Holy Matrimony is Christian marriage, in which the woman and man enter into a life-long union, make their vows before God and the Church, and receive the grace and blessing of God to help them fulfill their vows. Q. What is Reconciliation of a Penitent? A. Reconciliation of a Penitent, or Penance, is the rite in which those who repent of their sins may confess them to God in the presence of a priest, and receive the assurance of pardon and the grace of absolution. Q. What is Unction of the Sick? A. Unction is the rite of anointing the sick with oil, or the laying on of hands, by which God’s grace is given for the healing of spirit, mind, and body.
Sorry Anna, been having a busy week and totally forgot to answer you. Yes, it helped clarify things, thanks for taking the time to answer. There's a few things I shall have to ponder
Scottish Knight, O.K. just wanted to check. I've been missing your posts. Hope you've been busy with pleasant things. Anna
I was hoping other Anglicans would add more on the justification issue. I'm not exactly an apologist. Anna
Don't wait up for a Franciscan to weigh in on that stuff we believe all that guff is a waste of energy.... My suggestion would be: Go out and buy a Bible that has the words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ written in red... Read those words pray, meditate, reflect and contemplate on those words... What YOU get from those words are gems worth more then all the precious gem stones in the world, worth more then all the theology that has ever been written, worth more then all the doctrines that have been written and worth more then all the arguments we could ever come up with here. Now live those words and make them part of who you are. Beats all the theology, dogma, apologetics, philosophy being dished up anywhere. Spend more time praising God for his creation and now and again come in here for a chat.... Lifes Good, Blessings, Gordon
Here I must agree with Gordon and his seraphic friends... we are called to an innocence above even the angels. That is our justification. I somewhat regret the day when Christians felt the need to descend into this legalistic obsession, separating everything into exact categories to be haggled over. Justification is keeping the child's awe at God's creation. To trust, love, and have faith are what we were created for. Good works will cease in the future because they won't be needed, but love of God and our fellow creatures will not cease... so why not look to what is more essential first, that it may inform all else? We cannot be counted just before God's total holiness solely by good works devoid of any faith or intent of love. Were that the case, God would count everyone 'righteous' who holds a door for a wheelchair-bound person, despite their actual intentions. We exist solely to glorify God - along with the angel in his own way, the gazelle in her own way, and the stars in their own way. Paul says we are justified by our faith, apart from the works of the Law. The Ten Commandments and 613 mitzvot do not inherently make us perfect if we just scrupulously follow them without a reason. James says the same thing, in this context: faith is not going to be real unless it lives the very essence of God, which is an outpouring of love by working for the glory of God and the good of others. True faith is not being scrupulous about giving exactly X dollars to charity, but true faith does give X dollars of charity because it loves deeply. There is no conflict between our beloved Apostles here. What is justification... hearing a Händel aria in A major and being surrounded by the joy of imagining the God-made meadows and Lord-breathed winds blowing over the calm rivers of the Earth and thanking God for such a perfect home. It is playing out amongst the stars without guile, without hatred, and without sin, and glorifying God for it. That is our true inheritance, after all.
This thread just got really confusing. How is theology a waste of time or somehow related to legalism? A non-Anglican friend is trying to understand our beliefs and terminology. Now we are telling him that it doesn't really matter, or that theology is less important than one's private interpretation of a select portion of Scripture? Not trying to put anyone's opinion down, but I'm not sure how that helps answer his question. The task of theology is important.
Adam, who has said or implied that private interpretation of a select portion of Scripture is more important than absolute truth, or anything like that? You must know that most theologians were just giving their opinion on verses and words of Scripture. For all his pious speculations about how we unjust sinners are made to appear justified before God's Justice, Aquinas (for example) can just end up blowing puffs of smoke, if his theorising distracts us from the blessed face of Jesus that is before us in other human beings. Jesus Christ died for us. Have faith in God's strong right hand and outstretched arm, love Him absolutely and those He has made along with you, and do good out of love. Bam! There's your answer. We're not fatally distracted just by having asked theological questions of course, but isn't it fruitless to go so deep into a matter that only God knows the process of? Why can't we just believe on the Lord Jesus, and love others to do good for them for the sake of God's glory? At the description of the Judgment, the Lord simply says He will separate the Lambs from the Goats based entirely on whether they fed the poor/clothed the naked/gave drink to the thirsty/visited the lonely, etc. Our salvation is apparently separate from how we are seen as 'just' before God's wrath against sin. It gets tiring to hear that protestants believe we are 'saved by faith alone', when we're only justified, which is courtroom jargon for God's decision as a judge. It has to do with His seeing Christ in our place. See how quickly this turns into a massive systematic theology? Paul, on the other hand, is so simple in his wish to preach Christ Crucified. If only we could stay on that level without all the mind-boggling theological layers added since the Scholastic age. How can anyone have a private "interpretation" of Romans 3:28 when read with James 2:24? It's all pretty clear unless they're purposefully obfuscating it. Rome even agrees with the Lutherans on justification, exemplified here. Anglicans aren't Lutherans, but SK didn't ask about Anglican positions; he asked about the meaning of justification, objectively.