Hello all. Peace be with you. This is a really interesting forum thanks to its members. I am a Church of England worshiper in my early 30s. My wife is a Roman Catholic. We were married in the Church of England, and I thought, given our discussion at the time she had acquiesced into Anglicanism given transubstantiation and a few other issues. We have both worshiped in Anglican churches and services since then. Anyway a Christening of her niece has brought an ill-observed issue to the fore and I may say given the Roman church's teachings 'brainwashed her', if I am being uncharitable, back to the Roman church. Apparently our wedding was not valid in the eyes of God. Enough of that. I wanted to give you a little background. My own issues are somewhat more theological and historical. I read history at university. I believe the reformation in Europe forced the Roman church to acknowledge many of its man-made ills such as purgatory and indulgences. What then became the English Reformation was good and right - truer to the Bible. I would say the Roman church has much to reform still, such as celibacy, which to his credit the current Pope is attempting to achieve. Fundamentally the English Reformation was a fudge from an historical perspective. So, what am I saying? Well, what am I? I am a high church liturgy, low church material, worshiper. I believe that the closer to the truth of the Bible the better. I believe that 'interpreting; the Bible for our own times is corruption, such as same sex marriage, female vicars. Yet, further still I believe the corruption for power is the worst of it all. I guess I am saying I wish the Anglican church would suspend itself in the 1920s as the Roman church is too corrupt for me, yet if this liberalism continues I may be forced into the Ordinate. Please feel free to ridicule or pick apart from Swiss Cheese opinions. NB my wife should be Anglican and I be an Ordinate!
George, If she got permission from her Roman Bishop it is valid. If not, still valid but illicit. Read the Roman canons 1601 to 1666. Be gentle with your wife. Ask her questions, listen to her. Roman does have a hook in many and most Romans have not idea about Christianity other than what Rome tells them. The Christening of her niece and I am sure the talk of her Roman family have had an influence. The Roman Church is very liberal. They have a facade of orthodoxy. In the States and Europe, far to many Cardinals and Bishops are actively homosexual and put that life style. Surveys by the Diocese of Kansas City report over half of the priest are active homosexuals. Archdiocese of New York, Cardinal Dolan helped push through allowing homosexual groups into the St Paddy parade and parishes such as St Mary's routinely have a "gay themed mass." There is even video of Cardinal Dolan supporting, during Mass, active homosexual groups who promote homosexual sex and lifestyles. Cardinal Godfried Danneels of Beligum openly supports so called homosexual marriages. George, I went to Rome via the US ordinariate. It is a sham. The one in the UK even worse. the Aussies is not existent. Never hear of it anymore. Pope Benedict had to infuse the UK ordinariate with large sums of money to keep it afloat. The UK group is not Anglican. Most of them used the ordinary form of the Roman Mass, having discarded the Prayerbook many years ago. The US group is in financial shambles. They just ousted Steenson for a Portuguese Bishop. He is finding most of the parishes are in name only with single digit ASA and in terrible financial troubles. I would offer the suggestion to stay where you are in your CoE parish. Try to find an orthodox one that fits your needs. As to your wife. Ask why the change? Listen and pray. Both of you pray together. And be careful of who you listen too. Well Intention people can cause problems, as I found out in my journey. By the way, I am now back in Anglicanism and very happy. Blessings Fr. Mark
The question of course is what does that even mean? Does it meant that you are not married and that you would be free to marry someone else without the nuisance of having to dissolve the marriage you are in. Clearly no, and the Roman Church would not contemplate annulling (which is just some form of ecclesiastical legal fiction) the marriage until after a decree absolute had been issued. Does it mean you will not be married when you get to heaven? That is reminiscent of the question the Sadducees posed in Matthew 22:23-33. Does it mean that God who created all things is somehow institutionally blinkered and only sees those things that happen in some parts of the western Church? For some-one to take the position suggested shows either a poor understanding of either God, Marriage, or Church. The ministers of the Sacrament of Marriage are the Bride and Groom. The earthly symbol is/are the ring/s and it is a spiritual sign of the love God has for the Church. Institutions can say all sorts of things, that can seem in ways to limit the effectiveness of God's presence in the world. The Anglican Church understands itself to be part of the Catholic Church (the whole people of God). The Roman Church describes itself as the Catholic Church and some of their number misunderstand that to mean that they are the limit of God's effective action in the word. JB Phillips wrote a book about hat kind of thinking - Your God is too small. I hope this helps
Hello. I'm Catholic but really have no horse in the race here, I would not think the RC would be the right church for everyone. Firstly, do not assume the RC is holy and pure and spotless, but at the same time it is not as bad as some make it out to be. Like any organisation there are many sinners in it and there are many with heterodox views. What there also is though is a standard of orthodoxy that can be pointed to as a blueprint of how the church should be run. For instance, there could never be female Catholic priests. As for the Ordinariate, I attend an Ordinariate parish and at least at my parish we do use the Ordinariate usage based on the Book of Common Prayer. More are doing so as our Ordinary has been encouraging this in recent months. But at the end of the day, this is still part of the wider Catholic Church and if you have issues with the RC in general, joining through the Ordinariate will not make a lot of difference aside from ensuring you are in the company of more orthodox traditional Catholics. From what you have said though, maybe you would both be happier in an Anglo-Catholic parish? Maybe one affiliated with Forward in Faith?
The mainstream Catholic Church is incredibly liberal, for example here in the US the majority of catholics are in favor of gay marriage, abortion, contraception, and women priests. They have in fact been pushing the country in that direction since it was the catholic mayors, universities and population that have demanded for these changes across the country. A catholic university near me instituted transgender bathrooms and other agenda and fired the few voices who opposed them... There is a huge global context for your local decisions. Remember that you are choosing between global churches here... Although the local CofE establishment is liberal the Global Anglican world seems to be very conservative; we may only wish that they'd make more of an impact in England.... Meanwhile with Rome although the Ordinariate is a little more sheltered than the Novus Ordo it is at the end of the day subject to Archbishop Nichols who is liberal, and the Vatican which is very liberal. Today's bishop of Rome refuses to judge gay people or the gay agenda, opened communion for divorced and remarried, is not opposed to women deacons, and compared Christian Evangelism to Islamic Jihad. No protection in the Ordinariate can protect one from that and there isnt any African evangelization forthcoming there...
http://theweek.com/articles/557418/why-are-catholics-supportive-gay-marriage Much to the Vatican's evident chagrin, majorities of Catholics all over the West support same-sex marriage, often at higher rates than other Christian denominations. In majority-Protestant Northern Ireland, the provincial Assembly has refused to join the rest of the United Kingdom in allowing same-sex marriage — most recently in January — and First Minister Peter Robinson recently agreed with his wife that homosexuality is "an abomination." https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog.../11/catholics-still-lead-way-on-gay-marriage/ https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/p...tholics-support-abortion-in-all-or-most-cases https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/h...-canada-elect-its-most-pro-abortion-prime-min
Caution!!! Don't assume that the US Roman Catholic Church is indicative of the rest of the world. Perhaps it's simply indicative of life in today's US
I suspect one of the issues that the global village has not come to terms with is the diversity of culture and cultural understandings, no doubt shaped by each community's own history and value inheritance. John Macquarie in his Principles of Christian Theology noted that culture was a defining contributor to each person's theology. Each of us must determine what is of our Cultural Inheritance and what represents the mind of God. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. When I worked in Papua New Guinea we were confronted with this question and constantly asked ourselves what is culture and what is gospel. Our unity is not dependent on us speaking with one heart soul and mind on every subject. The 39 articles recognise that. We need to work hard to hear what is good and noble and true in what our brothers and sisters are speaking, rather than making sure we correct their every misstep. We are called to be Christ's Ambassadors - a powerful and important task - which sadly some exercise more in the sense of being Heaven's Bouncers! I know that some of you will not agree with John Macquarie (after all he was an existentialist!). We inherit things in growing up, in becoming part of a faith community, and many things we adopt, or accrue by some kind of osmosis. Sometimes we need to look at these assumptions. My birth certificate says my parents married on the 7th of April 1950. I grew up accepting that as a given. I now know that at that time my father was married to another woman, and my mother had married someone else on the 1st of April 1950. I grew up believing that the Nicene Creed was true. It was part of being a Christian to believe the Nicene Creed. I now do believe the Nicene Creed from the First Council of Constantinople, and I am sorry that was not exactly what we inherited in the Anglican Communion and the book of Common Prayer. I still believe I was born, and that my parents despite the sacramental lack loved each other, I still believe I am an Anglican, and I value the 39 Articles and the the Book of Common Prayer. And I still continue to ask myself what is culture and what is gospel. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn you.
I became a conservative Anglican through spending time in RC and EO forums, then I started searching for my own. I'll watch this one out.
Apologies if I wasn't clear. There were two issues. 1. My wife being alienated and treated badly by the RC church. 2. My issues with how the CoE is evolving. I really can't bring myself to resolve to the RC HOWEVER I find myself a low church materialistic person and high church liturgical person. Transubstantiation prohibits me going RC (amongst every fibre of my body) but female vicars, same sex marriage - where is the liturgy in that?
Have you considered the Anglican Catholic Church? I have no personal experience with them except from following their websites. They uphold a Christianity that I once knew. I am sure that we do have members of the ACC here.
Here is their websitehttp://www.anglicancatholic.org.uk They are also a world wide communion but outside the Canterbury fold . They could be a nice middle ground for you and the wife.
My personal opinion, as a strategic point, is to stay within CofE and reform it from within, finding a solid parish and perhaps moving one's family to it. Going beyond the pale of the communion can be a peace of mind however, so I understand both options.
I have the same concerns as you about the Anglican Church (feamale priests and bishops; same sex marriage), but wouldn't consider becoming RC for some of the same reasons as you (transubstsntiation, papal infallibilty, indulgences, immaculate conception). Having read widely about Eastern Orthodoxy, I consider myself EO in belief and am seriously considering joining that Church. Perhaps have a think about EO?
EO is a big topic in itself, and hardly monochrome. How do you answer the question 'who is the current Patriarch of Antioch'. Even with Rome giving up its claim there are still several contenders. The biggest challenge for English Speaking Anglo Celtic Tradition Christians is not the theology, for much of it is home, is not the liturgy because it is stunning comprehensive and well considered, but perhaps the culture. If you lived in an Orthodox Community long enough to be truly enculturated - then you may be there in a heartbeat. The commitment of the Orthodox Churches to the Bible, The Sacraments, The Unity of the Church, the Great Councils of the Church, and the Creed as declared and affirmed by the councils, and the propriety of the Patriarchs is a true and living testimony. But we don't speak one language, and we don't express one culture, and as attractive as it may seem, it is culturally a long way to Constantinople. None the less it was not the Patriarch of Constantinople who authorised the Norman Invasion of England by William the Conqueror. My understanding is that from the time of the Great Schism in 1054 till the Norman Conquest 1066 the English Church remained in communion with the East. I think I wish Anglicanism could be a little more Orthodox in an English kind of way!
I so understand your frustrations as I feel that way too. I pray everyday for the unity of the Church and that Anglicanism returns to Orthodoxy. I am not sure though about converting to Orthodoxy as I believe that if Anglicanism could get its house in order...we would be the Orthodox Church of the West. I seriously consider moving to the Anglican Catholic Church though as soon as it takes root here in South Africa (for now we have very few parishes, all of which are far from us). My main issue with Rome is the papacy..my lay person's view is that all RC extensions of the faith stemmed from the papacy (just my view)
I would love to see Anglicanism become the Orthodox Church of the west, but I imagine that only a minority of Anglicans would want that. Anglicanism is so broad. When I became a Christian in my teens I attended an evangelical Anglican Church where the beliefs were firmly rooted in the Protestant tradition and I thought of myself most definitely as a Protestant. After many years and, having fallen away from my faith for a considerable length of time, I now attend an Anglo Catholic Church that is still in communion with Canterbury but rooted in the Catholic tradition and with beliefs quite similar to EO. The Eastern Orthodox core message seems to remain consistently the same wherever you go and whatever you read. If you are interested in the EO/RC split read about the Schism and the 7 Ecumenical Councils. RC textensions of the faith came after that. A great barrier to communion between the EO and Anglican Churches is the ordination of women to the priesthood.
I have just read your comments Philip and totally agree with your last sentence! But, if you are interested take a look at the website for St Aidan's Orthodox Church in Manchester and, in particular, its mini course Orthodoxy for Absolute Beginners - it links to loads of resources you can dip in and out of. The Priest is Fr Gregory Hallam, definitely British, who used to be an Anglican Priest. Having said all this, I am still an Anglican!