About the Dead in Christ/Saintly Intercession

I'm just saying that the idea that they are unconscious is a problem, and I was seeing some who were associating sleep with a sort of comatose state of inactivity. I have no objection to the idea of "sleeping" if by it is simply meant "resting." I think the dead are aware of their surroundings, and maybe even of events on Earth, but they are limited like we are. I simply believe that they can only be in one place at one time, and therefore cannot know everything or communicate with us. I simply believe we will always be limited in our knowledge capacities. We will never be able to know everything, especially not in the way God knows everything. For instance, God can search inner hearts, but that is not something we will ever be able to do. One thing for these prayers to the saints advocates: How can the saints know if the prayer is asked in proper faith? Can they search hearts too?

To quote Nowell's Catechism on the matter:

 

How significant is it that the saints are "resting" versus outright "asleep" or in other words, why does it matter?

As I say if they are aware of us, then it becomes possible to argue that they could pray for us, and we could ask them to do it. If they are in a state of mind that's unaware of everything but heaven, God, and the angels then they know nothing of earth, and neither can we reach them with requests.

 

What do you mean by this? Are there people of improper faith that ask the heavenly saints to pray for them?

 

The reason why it matters is because the Bible seems to indicate that the dead are conscious in some way, and by using the idea that they are unconscious on weak Scriptural grounds is opening up the argument from the other side. I do not think that opens us up to the idea that saints know every grave detail of what is happening on planet earth, even our private prayers. The dead and ourselves are simply in two different worlds and the dead are not omniscient, so I really do not even see any connection.

Yes. There are people with false faith. They do not have a lively faith. God knows if our prayers are said in faith, humans will never be able to search our hearts to see if we are faithful.

 

- @Elizabethan Churchman

Yes, but do you think that people would ask the heavenly saints to pray for them, if they indeed had no faith? I don't think that they would. I would think that such people would not pray at all.

 

Well, yes, I would think they pray. There are atheists who pray things like "If you exist God, show me by performing a miracle. I guess I'm supposed to pray in Jesus' name, so in Jesus' name I pray." I don't see why false professors would be different. Of course, perhaps this goes to a difference in the nature of saving faith between the two of us. As a Calvinist, I believe true saving of necessity perseveres to the end.

 

@Elizabethan Churchman, I don't know why someone that doesn't even believe in God would believe that He listens to the intercessions of the heavenly saints. That's two levels of belief vs. one level of belief. I know of no non-Christian that asks the heavenly saints to pray for them.

So, your concern of whether or not the heavenly saints can distinguish between "proper" and "improper" faith would seem to be a non-issue.

 

the homilies declares that a true and lively faith is necessary to obtain salvation. Are you saying you believe Roman Catholics are not saved? if so, what is your justification for this? is it merely that they seek the intercession of saunts

 

I don't know how you get that I'm saying Roman Catholics aren't Christians. I believe the Roman Catholic Church is part of the visible Church. All I'm saying that a saint could not know whether someone possesses a lively faith or not. That is not something human beings can know, at least not until you meet your fellow saints in paradise. Most of what we can know on that account is that there are no ordinary means of salvation outside of the visible Church.

Imagine an apostate cradle Roman Catholic praying in the name of Mary. I'd be willing to believe that happens with some regularity. Also, in order to be truly "omniscient" as you claim, the saints would have to be able to read hearts. In order to know for whom to send up their allegedly extra-worthy prayers, they would have to be able to search their heart. Particularly Mary, because I'm sure she's the most popular recipient of such faithless prayers.

 

I think you're right, I see your point, and concur.

 

@Elizabethan Churchman

But if someone's actually praying, I think that there must be some measure of faith involved.

I said that they "share" in God's omniscience, not that they have so much access that they can read hearts, although it wouldn't bother me at all if they do. I am saying that they can, at least, observe everyone's outward actions. For example, like I showed you earlier, they see enough in order to be able to "[rejoice] over one sinner who repents".

Not necessarily. They can pray for whomever they want.

 

On that we shall have to disagree. The only "faith" that matters is justifying faith.

Then why not say they share in God's omnipotence? I mean, we could say that we living humans "share in God's omniscience" by this definition because He shares in the Holy Scripture much that we could not know outside of His direct revelation to us.

I do not think this discussion is moving forward at all. All we seem to get back to is whether human beings will be able to know extensively of events on Earth. I do not believe this is the case, you apparently do. I also do not even think the issue is relevant in the first place: The dead saints' general prayer for the estate of Christ's Church on earth is all that is needed for some sort of communion between them. There is really no need in my view for living saints to communicate with dead saints.

 

@Elizabethan Churchman

So, people without "justifying faith" should be completely ignored by those with it? Shouldn't it be the opposite?

I've answered this. I said earlier:

You also said:

But if the heavenly saints can pray in general, then why can't they pray in specific? You haven't disproved the fact that they do observe many events. And considering that the better part of Christian history has encouraged the act of seeking their intercessions, one would do best to stay on the side of this history, unless of course, he could somehow definitively disprove the value of the practice.

There's no such thing as a "dead" saint -- all saints are alive in Christ and are members of the Communion of Saints.

You should ask why the "Communion of Saints" is mentioned in the Apostles' Creed and in the Nicene Creed, what the term means, and what its impact is on this discussion.

 

It is impossible for them to know that we are petitioning them. They are in an entirely separate state of being from us. The chasm between them and us is wide.

Reading the idea of petitioning for saintly intercession into a three word phrase is rather hefty work. It would be much simpler to believe it has to do with our spiritual unity, which does not die even when we lose contact. Despite the fact I know not one Christian from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, I am still in communion with them and spiritually united to them. That does not require either him or me to ask each other for specific petitions to be made for the other.

 

Just a small pedantic point, but I don't think the story of lazarus and the rich man can definitely be said to be a parable, Jesus doesn't say it is a parable. It may just be a true story.

 

thanks for the clarification EC, but you must admit that when you said RCs had false faith and not lively faith, it's easy to see how someone familiar with the anglican formularies could be confused, right?

 

could be...

 

I didn't apply it specifically to RC's or any particular individual, just that there might be somebody that prays to a saint that lacks lively faith. The "they" I referred to was anyone who lacks lively faith, just for even further clarification. I suppose I should have made the context more clear in the beginning.

 

- @Elizabethan Churchman

That's what we're debating.

I don't accept your premise, and you're not directly addressing -- or, perhaps, I should say "directly disproving" -- all of my points. You have offered no refutation of the fact that they "[rejoice] over one sinner who repents". If they can view that activity -- which, actually, could involve the reading of hearts -- what else can they view? Also, you haven't provided (as far as I can recall) a very specific, Scripture- and/or Tradition-based scope for their knowledge, and meanwhile, I and others on this thread have been comparatively specific.

But what does this "spiritual unity" entail? That's what we're discussing. I don't think that the Church Fathers fit "Communion of Saints" into a Creed for some vague purpose, especially because the ideas that I am espousing were taught by them before the Creed was codified.

(Quotes from the selection of many here: http://www.kathyschley.com/Early_Church_F/Communion_of_x.html)

 

I think MatthewOlsen is quite right. On his side is a very ancient and venerable tradition of the Church, whereas EC, you offer something quite speculative but without much grounding in the usual sources of authoritative teaching for Christianity.

I also find it interesting that you are arguing that the saints in glory are actually more limited in knowledge of things going on than we on earth are. After all, thanks to communications technology, strangers can be put in touch with one another just by picking up the phone or sitting down to their keyboard. Look at us now- without ever having met in person we both know something of each other and our respective thoughts on issues x, y, and z.

Do you really think if we with our obvious limitations have found a way,that God can't?

Two further points,
one, I'm not sure I buy that whole purity of heart argument- I'm sure when Churches pray for victims of disasters or relatives of someone recently deceased, they don't distinguish between those of a lively faith and those without. Does a parent who prays for each of their children stop if one of them loses their faith? Surely humans need to pray without ceasing, and leave the judgement ultimately to God as to whether they're answered. Ultimately Novatianism and Donatism were rejected by Bishops in favour of the church as a mixed community of the righteous and unrighteous, leaving God to pick out true and false faith.

two, on the matter of 'the communion of saints', you have pointed out the spiritual union of the living 'which does not die even when we lose contact' presumably this extend then beyond death too...I think a lot of this argument from ignorance stems from your thought that 'The dead and ourselves are simply in two different worlds' with limited interface with each other.

Yet isn't this exactly what 'the communion of saints' actually denies? The living and the dead are not in two different worlds, aren't they actually united together in Christ? The Body of Christ is surely one, united world?