My confession

Well, Admin has replied to this and I accept her/his decision, but it does seem odd that member of an organisation called "CEC" can at least imply that most of us in the Church of England, including the majority of our clergy and bishops, are to be regarded not as Anglicans, but as apostate. This is very sad because the CofE is a very tolerant, open, friendly church.

I am having trouble getting a reply from Historyb about our "ungodly" views, but it seems that to fall into line the CofE will have to defrock all women priests and accept creationism. Now since that's just not going to happen, we appear to have from him the stance that the CofE, the mother church of the Anglican Communion, is in fact no longer Anglican.

"Curiouser and curiouser" (Alice in Wonderland).

 

I never said accept Creationism, once again liberals put words in peoples mouth. I speak for myself not the CEC.

Edited for personal references.

 

There are specific fringe groups who are attacking the general and diverse core. At the parish we attend, all are welcome. In some of the fringe groups, they clearly are not accepting of people outside of their views. I suspect that in person, versus anonymously online they may be more polite about it. I know that in my parish, we have people at both ends of the spectrum. At times those with zealotous views do speak up, one did this morning at the monthly men's breakfast. We do tolerate that with the intolerance generally coming from such vigourous fringe viewpoints.

Edited for continuity.

 

Well, I'm not Admin, but it seems that Historyb is sailing pretty close to the wind. His post on Thurs 9:11 pm refers to "groups that have walked away from the church". This could imply that the CofE has. Ditto his comment an hour later about "throwing scripture under the bus" and, 10:27 pm, "apostate". Now he won't be drawn on whether he is referring to me specifically, or to the congregation of my parish church, or the CofE as a whole, but I am not regarded here as a misfit, let alone "apostate". In the words of my Vicar, I am "one of us". Read into that what you will.

 

So it's accepting women priests that have caused me to "walk away from God". Since the Archbishop of Wales is "looking forward enormously" to the appointment of a woman bishop (and already ordains women priests) can I take it that in your view he has walked away even further?

On a nit-picking point, I see that the terms of this forum do not exclude being derogatory about the Church in Wales, so you might as well come clean.

 

No seagull, the acceptance of female priests and their ministry to the church has caused the church to sail closer to God not further away. Jesus came into the world to do His part in God's plan. We are to do as Jesus guides. In Christ there is no male nor female. We are all One in Christ.

 

And yet He didn't ordain women did he.

God teaches us that men and women have different natures. And when came time to ordain Apostles, He only ordained men. His Apostles taught that women cannot preach in the Church, and are made in the image of man.

What you guys are saying that you would like to be holier than Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

 

There is no where in Scripture, Tradition, or Apostolic Teaching where female ordination was prescribed. Female ordination brings in a slippery slope where anything is okay to be done and a disregard for the truth becomes commonplace

 

You don't know that. I get that you believe it. The Roman church also believes this. The Anglican Communion does not hold with your views, and is not going to change in your direction. As Archbishop Fred Hiltz said 'we must draw the circle wide, and then drawn it wider still". God wants salvation for all, not just for an exclusive few. That's why Jesus was sent as a poor man, and why he associated with the least likeable people possible. He also showed himself to women first after the resurrection. There is good info that before the institutionalisation of the church at the time of Constantine, before even it was decided which books would be included in the bible that women did play roles of leadership as they were allowed within the social conditions at the historical times. This was certainly ended when church and state became allied. But we cannot escape that the living out of Christianity is within the culture and social conditions at the time. Today we have different social conditions and God is calling us to be just and to fulfill his will.

Courses in biblical history, textual criticism, the Jesus of the gospels, Paul, all are most enlightening and have openned eyes, hearts and spirit.

It seems clear that in this forum there are strict Anglicans and Christians who have departed from the main communion of Anglicanism. I wonder if we could ever come to the level of mutual understanding that we are not going to agree with each other?

 

No one needs to change to my direction, they need to change to Christ direction which many modern Churches have left behind because they want to be "relevant" they trade the truth of Christ for the tickling lies of Satan

 

The Anglican Communion rejects women ordinations by a wide margin. It's rather narcissistic to look in the mirror and judge oneself as the measure of all things.

As the famous wise man said, "We shouldn't keep such an open mind that our brains fall out".

Why are you talking about salvation? You're grasping at any and all straws here. Women and men are saved by God equally.

Umm that was decided by God himself.

 

Okay. If you don't know the history of the selection of the books into the canon of scripture, we don't have a knowledge basis on which to base discussion.

The Abp's brain is not an issue. Belief in peripheral issues that divide is.

If we're talking Christianity, we're always talking about salvation. It is the basis of everything, Jesus' purpose, God's love. If you have no salvation in your view of Jesus, we have no basis here either to discuss. Thanks for your time and trouble. God bless you.

 

Trying to invoke salvation is both a red herring and a non sequitur. As I already said women and men are saved equally.

 

I am a simple man, a mere pew warmer. I never went to seminary and don't consider myself a theologian. Can someone cite me chapter and verse where Jesus said a woman cannot be ordained? I'd really like to see evidence of this thing about which you speak.

 

A church leader must be without fault; he must have only one wife, be sober, self-controlled, and orderly; he must welcome strangers in his home; he must be able to teach; 3 he must not be a drunkard or a violent man, but gentle and peaceful; he must not love money; 4 he must be able to manage his own family well and make his children obey him with all respect. 5 For if a man does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of the church of God?

1 Tim 3:2-5

an elder must be without fault; he must have only one wife, and his children must be believers and not have the reputation of being wild or disobedient.

Titus 1:6

and from the Church Fathers:

 

Thank you for this, but what I asked for was what Jesus said about ordination of women. All I see here is what Paul and early church fathers said, plus an inference of what they thought that Jesus meant because he sent out 12 men to teach. Did Jesus have anything to say on the subject?

 

Since the Bible is the Word of God and Christ is God, He has said those things through Paul.