Let me first say that I have no interest or plans to leave the Anglican Communion or the Anglican Faith. In joining TEC, I knew and understood the risks I was taking and continue to take as I try my best to serve God and his Church. However, for us in TEC and perhaps in other Anglican provinces, there may soon come a time when the church is no longer a "church." For many former Episcopalians, this has already happened and most have moved on to either Rome or a "continuing" Anglican church. That being said, a majority of traditional Episcopalians have decided to stay and either see what happens next or to "weather" the storm. Many of us, though, in the back of our minds, realize that there may be a point when all hope is lost in TEC or that TEC may abandon the Christian faith completely for something more unitarian. So, my question is, when is a church no longer a church and what would it take for you to leave your current church? Do you have a back up plan if you can no longer, in good conscience, remain Episcopalian (or Anglican)? For me, if the national church decided to abandoned the creeds completely or if TEC is no longer in communion with the Church of England, that would probably be the tipping point for me. However, I don't think either of these things will happen soon, especially "officially" abandoning the creeds. Third, if the national church no longer requires baptism to receive communion. Again, sadly, many parishes are practicing this, but it is not the "official" practice of the church. My question is, if baptism is no longer necessary, are we still a sacramental church? I'm not sure if i'd leave over this issue alone, but being a sacramental church is very important to me. At the local parish level, if our church abandoned the creeds, became more unitarian, rejected the authority of the bible, or we get stuck with a revisionist rector, i'd view any of these as reasons to leave. Again, I have no intention of leaving, Anglicans are good at dealing with anxiety and diversity, but the church may leave me at some point. As far as a back up plan: Entering the Roman Catholic Church. Not something I want to do, but it's an option. Entering the Eastern Orthodox Church. Better alternative than Rome in my eyes, but the closest Orthodox church is about 100 miles away. Joining a "continuing" Anglican Church. This is probably the most desirable option. The issue of not being in communion with England is important, but this may soon change. Unfortunately, there is none in my area. The closest being at 100 miles away. Joining a more traditional Episcopal parish. We only have one parish where I live, but this could be an option for others. Joining a Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) or Presbyterian Church in America. A good option. Some are more "high" church and liturgical than others, but a good option. There is one in my area (Lutheran). Joining another mainline church (UMC, ECLA, Presbyterian). An option for me, but not very desirable. Many of these churches are following TEC. Remaining Episcopalian and worshipping at home. Not very desirable, but may be something that has to be done temporarily. So, what are your plans or thoughts on this unfortunate possibility?
Sean, You really cut to the heart of the matter. lol. I think many of us, whether we voice it or not, are thinking about "the back up plan."
Lol, I try to be as clear as possible! Actually, I had reservations about making this thread, but it's something that does weigh on my mind somewhat often. I suspect most of us are thinking about or have "the back up plan." I'm mainly curious of what options some have thought of and what they think about the "popular" options that I posted. Not to mention, where you live plays a big part in it as well. I'm also curious to know how far is "too far" when it comes to deviations away from the traditional Christian faith. I agree with you about Rome, it's a "tough pill" for Anglicans to swallow when comes to the Pope. I'm curious, as I know only a little of Eastern Orthodoxy, how long is the average service? For me and my current location, the only choices I have are Rome and Lutheran Missouri Synod. If geography didn't matter: 1. Other Anglican 2. Lutheran or Orthodoxy 3. Prebyterian in America (distant third)
Two hours is not uncommon, and they usually stand--at least that's the case in the Church in my area. CF has a good EO forum, if you have questions. I've found the EO members there to be very helpful. Interesting choices. Very similar to mine. I do need to do some research on the Presbyterian faith. I really don't know much about them. It is more difficult when there are no Churches in your area. There are many advantages to worshiping and serving in one's own community. One of the things I like about the Episcopal Church is the strong emphasis on serving community (and beyond.) Peace, Anna
Very interesting, i'm sure it would be interesting to see an Orthodox service, but standing 2 hours would be tough if one isn't use to that or if they work a desk job like I do. The Presbyterian faith is very much reformed, not exactly what many of us anglo catholics would be looking for, but some presbyterian churches are high church and hold closer to tradition than other protestant options. Agreed, one of the things that makes me proud of the Episcopal Church is the emphasis and committment to the local community, few churches put the emphasis on community like TEC does and few do a better job at serving locally than Episcopalians.
The Presbyterian Church in America...sigh. My old stomping grounds. I was on staff at a PCA church for years. Wow...what an important topic! I'm really blessed to have a great Episcopal parish that isn't going anywhere, so that's where I plan to be for as long as possible. But if disaster struck, and I had to change, a backup plan would be required. The options aren't great. The ACNA/AMiA presence in my area is basically nonexistent. The only churches that they have around here are ultra TBN-style charismatics, and they don't use the BCP. It's really bizarre. Not really Anglican at all. I like LCMS on paper (minus their views on apostolic succession), but driving 45 minutes to get to church takes me pretty far out of the community. After a terrible RCIA experience, I'm not exactly rushing to join Rome. PCA's not liberal, but a lot of the members are just general evangelicals. So, if I didn't find another orthodox Episcopal parish, I think my list would look something like this: 1. Other Anglican Church (if they'd stop slacking and actually plant a legitimate parish out here); this is definitely the preferred option. 2. LCMS...I guess 3. Remain Anglican and worship at home on weekdays with Daily Office, etc. Some involvement with a local non-Anglican body would still be needed on Sundays. I wouldn't cut myself off from preaching and fellowship, but I wouldn't join something with which I did not agree. Christianity is not best lived in isolation. So I'd still self-identify as Anglican, but I'd receive what grace I could find at whatever conservative church was available 4. Orthodoxy. There is much that I like about them, but I don't think I'd ever really fit in. And some things like all the standing, all the kissing, etc. just aren't me. 5. This spot is a tie between Rome and the PCA 6. Other evangelical 7. Other mainline 8. Whatever else is left
Adam, Somehow, I didn't remember the Presbyterian Church in America was your "old stomping ground." You sound about as enthusiastic about rejoining them, as I would rejoining the Southern Baptist Church. lol. I would run from the TBN-style charismatics. Yikes! It's a shame the ACNA/AMiA presence in your area is basically nonexistent. I know if a Continuing Anglican Church is not an option; I could attend a Lutheran Church and receive Communion. But, like you, I'd want to retain my Anglican identity (starting to sound like superheros with secret identities--your avatar isn't helping. lol.) The Sacraments are so important. So, a Sacramental Church is imperative for me, as I'm sure it is for you and Sean. I can't go back to "symbolic remembrance" in Baptism and the Lord's Supper. Like you, I wouldn't want to give up my Anglican identity. I love the Anglican faith. Also, my son's father and family are all Canadian Anglicans. My former mother-in-law and I have remained friends since my divorce in 1992. She is thrilled that I was Confirmed in the Anglican Church. I'm praying my son, who left organized religion, will give Anglicanism a chance. It will take a miracle to undo the damage done while we were still in the Southern Baptist Church. I pray for that miracle everyday. Reading through your response, and Sean's; I feel so sad that we would even have to consider "the back up plan." Like, yours, my Parish is solid. Our Rector is fighting for orthodoxy within the Communion. He is faithful to the Gospel; and I have no worries as long as he remains our Rector. I would hate to ever see him leave, but he would be a great Bishop. He was considered for Bishop a few years ago; but he would not compromise. Another Priest, with more liberal sympathies, was elected instead. So, we may be living on borrowed time, as they say. I pray that none of us have to use the "back up plan." May our Lord preserve and restore His Truth in Anglicanism. Peace and blessings, Anna
It's possible that I never brought it up haha. I don't remember. But yeah, that's where I was for about 20 years. And I was on staff at one of their churches after I graduated from college. I'm thankful that I grew in the love & knowledge of the Lord there, and I'm thankful that there was this wonderful option for me when my studies of theology & church history led me in another direction. God does good things through them, and he does good things through our current church home too. That's all I will say at the moment. I think we should put this concept to use. Orthodox Anglicans as real-life superheroes - I like it!
I just recently came to TEC after a lifetime in Methodism. I suppose I could go back, although I think it unlikely. As I was exploring changing my faith practice before arriving at TEC, I gave a long and hard look to Orthodoxy. I am fortunate to have three Orthodox bodies in my town, Antiochian, OCA, & Greek. I have worshiped at the OCA and enjoyed it very much although it would take some adjustment to the eastern way of doing things -- which is why I ended up in TEC. I have a fondness for the Orthodox however. There is something admirable about a Church that has refused to change anything since 1054. I take great comfort in that while the western church seems to be so quick to change anything according to the whims of humankind.
I think it is six of one and half a dozen of another, sometimes things do need to change to enable our spirituality to evolve... Just think of the change that our Saviour Jesus Christ caused to happen on the planet... I am really glad I longer need to offer a lamb without blemish as a sin offering to the Lord...
I just thought I would add my two cents into this equation. I once read that heresy is more tolerated than schism. I was baptised and confirmed as a member of the Episcopal Church. I don't forsee any reason for TEC to abandon the Creeds of historic christendom or the early ecumenical councils of the Church. However, if it abandoned, say, the Divinity of Christ or the Real Presence then I would certainly consider returning to the Eastern Orthodox Church (I was chrismated into that Communion on Pentecost of 2010). However, the simple fact that people who are not baptised are taking communion isn't new. I agree that a person should be baptised in order to safeguard their own well being and that of the Church. However, this Church has been very welcoming to me as a gay man living in the South. I wouldn't leave it simply because of a theological disagreement. However, once the Church starts abandoning Creeds and Councils, then there might be a problem. But like I said, I doubt that will happen.
This has been a very interesting and very helpful thread. My story is similar to some of the ones reported above. I was attending an Episcopal church for several years. However, as someone stated above, the church left me long before I left it. Everything would have been fine with the liturgy, music, and mid-week communion services, if only the new rector would have kept his opinions to himself during the services. But the new rector kept inserting liberal comments whenever he could. I don't know. Maybe he was under some compulsion to get such comments in the audio, video, and written records. I went and talked with him, and we ended up arguing about church history, theology, Scripture, meaning of liturgy, prayer, and so forth. After I acknowledged my traditional views, my eyes opened and I began to see that what once was, now was no more inside this former sacred place. So I left, and not having any community Sacramental options available except the Roman Catholic church, I looked around and found some good non-Sacramental fellowships. However, I always left the non-Sacramental services knowing my soul was missing something it needed. Then the ACNA planted a church in our small community. I am resolved to do what I can to help the new ACNA church stay. EDIT: The new rector seemed to hold to the Memorial view of the Eucharist. The new rector may possibly hold to the Spiritual Presence of Christ--however, I really could not get him to comment specifically on this. The rector did say, however, that he did not hold to the Physical Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. My personal view is that Christ is both Spiritually and Physically Present in the Eucharist. ...Scottish Monk Life Journey CD music by Dave Bainbridge & David Fitzgerald listen at YouTube Special thanks to Symphorian for Celtic music recommendations.
Scottish Monk, Thanks be to God that you have the ACNA Church! I've heard a similar story from other Episcopalians. It's so sad to see a Church turn away from orthodox teachings. If my Rector leaves, I may be looking too. Peace and blessings, Anna
I am currently attending an ACNA church and a Baptist church. Alternating between the two. I started going to the Baptist church because it was the ONLY church in my area that had a ministry to singles over 40. I had just lost my wife and was again single through no choice of my own. She is in heaven waiting for me. I am sure she has joined those there in the Beautific Vision of our Triune God. But the Baptist church left much to be desired in the area of the Sacraments. So when I saw that there was an ACNA church in my area I started going there every few Sundays as well.
There is a lot to be said of the state of the TEC church for sure, but what I really see is that it is going to a transitional phase. Things are changing not just in the TEC but in our modern world and Christianity as a whole. I have never had a priest let someone take Communion without being baptized or not requiring members to be baptized. In areas where these conditions are not met, the Church as a whole should put its foot down. Now if the TEC started preaching against the creeds of denying the Real Presence, I would be compelled to leave. I'd probably drive the distance to an OCA church that's like 50 miles away. I could not join Rome over simple convience.
I am like you if there was not an Anglican Church in my area I would go to another church until I found an Anglican Church to worship at... I always consider the words or our Lord Jesus when he said: Every day as part of our Franciscan Community Obedience prayer we say:
Adoramus Te Christe et benedici musti qui, a personctam crucem tu am redemisti mun dum Read more: http://artists.letssingit.com/joi-lyrics-adoramus-te-christe-dwrk46t#ixzz1z9WXEZBH LetsSingIt - Your favorite Music Community
For people like me who do not know Latin, here are a few brief comments and an English translation of a similar Latin stanza from Wikipedia. Andrea, perhaps you can comment whether the Latin stanza in your quote is used in a similar manner as described in the Wikipedia article. If not, can you comment on the use of the Latin stanza in your quote. I know, I can be a real stickler at times, however, I prefer to use translations and references in the name of "access" to additional information. And, I have not said it yet, but WELCOME to the Anglican Forums. It looks like you are going to have many meaningful comments to share. I look forward to reading your future posts. ...Scottish Monk
this part of the wikipedia is correct Who can be translated as because. We use this as a hymn a lot during Lent in my church. Guess I took for granted that others don't use it, or know how to translate into English. Mostly I've heard the English version as We adore thee O Christ and we Bless because by your Holy Cross you have Redeemed the World. The other line wikipedia may be based on a different version of the hymn Adoramus te Christe which is what I quoted.